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ashehu

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17 Answers

Spam Catcher

2/3/2008 9:30:00 PM

"Arvin Meyer [MVP]" <a@m.com> wrote in
news:OJ8wAVqZIHA.4332@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl:

> What you're missing is that it's not .NET that is using DAO as much as
> the JET engine. And you can use ADO very successfully with the JET
> engine, but is will be slower. Typically, that speed in a well
> designed database with a well designed query is of little concern,
> becuase it is not likely that you will be searching through more than
> 100K rows in JET, so a 1/2 second doesn't mean much. But if you are
> looping through a recordset with 100K of rows, it can mean a
> significant difference.

If you're processing 100K rows, shouldn't that be a red flag that you're
making access do something it's not designed to do? Access is a personal
database - for that much data I'm sure you'll get better performance with
SQL Server Express. Yes, it's more software to install, but it can always
be installed on a central server and shared amongst multiple clients?

--
spamhoneypot@rogers.com (Do not e-mail)

Ed Metcalfe

2/3/2008 10:36:00 PM

"Spam Catcher" <spamhoneypot@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A39A7E338FDFusenethoneypotrogers@127.0.0.1...
> If you're processing 100K rows, shouldn't that be a red flag that you're
> making access do something it's not designed to do?

No! I have developed, and continue to support, three systems in which there
is a table of nearly three million records. To date I have had no corruption
issues and no performance issues.

Ed Metcalfe.

Ed Metcalfe

2/3/2008 10:40:00 PM

"Ed Metcalfe" <edmetcalfe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:u3SpvUrZIHA.5984@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
> "Spam Catcher" <spamhoneypot@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A39A7E338FDFusenethoneypotrogers@127.0.0.1...
>> If you're processing 100K rows, shouldn't that be a red flag that you're
>> making access do something it's not designed to do?
>
> No! I have developed, and continue to support, three systems in which
> there is a table of nearly three million records. To date I have had no
> corruption issues and no performance issues.
>
> Ed Metcalfe.
>

And just to clarify, these are multi-user systems not single-user systems.

Ed Metcalfe.

Cor Ligthert [MVP]

2/4/2008 5:42:00 AM

Arvin,

DOA and ADO don't really fit in .Net.

You can use it, as you can use as you want probably even a punch card reader
which has drivers for Windows, but therefore a punch card reader is not a
part of Net.

Cor

Michel Posseth [MCP]

2/4/2008 5:43:00 AM

Well does this tell how good your Access program is , or does this tell
what it tells me, that the Developers that wrote this new system did not do
there job right
Or do you really believe Access outperfoms MS SQL or Oracle ?

There are lots of people out there that call themselves Developer , Software
engineer ,DBA`s ,,,,,,, but do not deserve there working titles i had once
to explain to a Company`s SQL DBA what BCNF stands for , and so i have
numerous examples that i encountered .

And yes a well designed ACCESS database, with a well designed ACCESS GUI
may perfom bether as a poorly designed Oracle database with a spaghetti
coded Visual studio application .

Michel

"Arvin Meyer [MVP]" <a@m.com> schreef in bericht
news:OSsbCCtZIHA.3652@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> And to rebuff the myth that Access can't handle more than a few users, one
> of my systems had 53 users with up to 75 connections (i.e. multiple
> front-ends could be opened by a single user. The users included 36 on the
> LAN, 8 accessing remotely using an ASP front-end, and 9 with Terminal
> Server connections. Again, no corruption and no performance issues.
>
> This particular system has now been replaced with a PeopleSoft system
> running Oracle, with numerous connection issues and down-time. It has less
> than 3/4 of the functionality, takes more users to do the same work, and
> the performance is abysmal when compared to what it replaced. It cost
> millions to build and millions to maintain. I just love it when "real"
> developers go to work. It validates my entire raison d'etre for being a
> database developer.
> --
> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
> http://www.dat...
> http://www.mvps....
> http://www.acc...
>
> "Ed Metcalfe" <edmetcalfe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:%23EpehWrZIHA.1132@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>
>> "Ed Metcalfe" <edmetcalfe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:u3SpvUrZIHA.5984@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>
>>> "Spam Catcher" <spamhoneypot@rogers.com> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9A39A7E338FDFusenethoneypotrogers@127.0.0.1...
>>>> If you're processing 100K rows, shouldn't that be a red flag that
>>>> you're
>>>> making access do something it's not designed to do?
>>>
>>> No! I have developed, and continue to support, three systems in which
>>> there is a table of nearly three million records. To date I have had no
>>> corruption issues and no performance issues.
>>>
>>> Ed Metcalfe.
>>>
>>
>> And just to clarify, these are multi-user systems not single-user
>> systems.
>>
>> Ed Metcalfe.
>>
>
>

William Vaughn

2/4/2008 6:53:00 AM

JET can indeed outperform SQL Server or Oracle or any full-blown DBMS. Of
course it can. It's far, far simpler. A text file can out perform JET. Just
as a screwdriver takes less power to operate than a jackhammer but can it
cut through a foot of concrete? No but, it can be the right tool for the
job--as long as you don't ask too much of it and know how to use it.

I've seen good Access applications and good Access/JET developers and I've
seen sloppy, ignorant, uninformed and inexperienced developers for every
type of data access paradigm. Customers often can't tell the difference
until it's too late and they have made a career commitment to the consultant
or employee--then it's even harder to purge the old and move over to a
working solution.

I've also seen deadly serious SQL Server applications that should never have
been allowed to run. Good and bad applications are a function of the
developer, the dba, the architect and the people that manage them--not the
tools, engines and Visual Studio. The best tools in the world in
inexperienced hands can still build crap.

--
__________________________________________________________________________
William R. Vaughn
President and Founder Beta V Corporation
Author, Mentor, Dad, Grandpa
Microsoft MVP
(425) 556-9205 (Pacific time)
Hitchhiker's Guide to Visual Studio and SQL Server (7th Edition)
____________________________________________________________________________________________
"Michel Posseth [MCP]" <MSDN@posseth.com> wrote in message
news:urDJaMvZIHA.4712@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> Well does this tell how good your Access program is , or does this tell
> what it tells me, that the Developers that wrote this new system did not
> do there job right
> Or do you really believe Access outperfoms MS SQL or Oracle ?
>
> There are lots of people out there that call themselves Developer ,
> Software engineer ,DBA`s ,,,,,,, but do not deserve there working titles
> i had once to explain to a Company`s SQL DBA what BCNF stands for , and so
> i have numerous examples that i encountered .
>
> And yes a well designed ACCESS database, with a well designed ACCESS GUI
> may perfom bether as a poorly designed Oracle database with a spaghetti
> coded Visual studio application .
>
> Michel
>
>
>
> "Arvin Meyer [MVP]" <a@m.com> schreef in bericht
> news:OSsbCCtZIHA.3652@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> And to rebuff the myth that Access can't handle more than a few users,
>> one of my systems had 53 users with up to 75 connections (i.e. multiple
>> front-ends could be opened by a single user. The users included 36 on the
>> LAN, 8 accessing remotely using an ASP front-end, and 9 with Terminal
>> Server connections. Again, no corruption and no performance issues.
>>
>> This particular system has now been replaced with a PeopleSoft system
>> running Oracle, with numerous connection issues and down-time. It has
>> less than 3/4 of the functionality, takes more users to do the same work,
>> and the performance is abysmal when compared to what it replaced. It cost
>> millions to build and millions to maintain. I just love it when "real"
>> developers go to work. It validates my entire raison d'etre for being a
>> database developer.
>> --
>> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
>> http://www.dat...
>> http://www.mvps....
>> http://www.acc...
>>
>> "Ed Metcalfe" <edmetcalfe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:%23EpehWrZIHA.1132@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>
>>> "Ed Metcalfe" <edmetcalfe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:u3SpvUrZIHA.5984@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>
>>>> "Spam Catcher" <spamhoneypot@rogers.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns9A39A7E338FDFusenethoneypotrogers@127.0.0.1...
>>>>> If you're processing 100K rows, shouldn't that be a red flag that
>>>>> you're
>>>>> making access do something it's not designed to do?
>>>>
>>>> No! I have developed, and continue to support, three systems in which
>>>> there is a table of nearly three million records. To date I have had no
>>>> corruption issues and no performance issues.
>>>>
>>>> Ed Metcalfe.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And just to clarify, these are multi-user systems not single-user
>>> systems.
>>>
>>> Ed Metcalfe.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Michel Posseth [MCP]

2/4/2008 8:19:00 AM

Bill

I get your point ,,,

However i was refering to the business solution Arvin described as it
sounded that this needed the power of a full blown rdbms so see my comment
in this context .

michel

"William Vaughn" wrote:

> JET can indeed outperform SQL Server or Oracle or any full-blown DBMS. Of
> course it can. It's far, far simpler. A text file can out perform JET. Just
> as a screwdriver takes less power to operate than a jackhammer but can it
> cut through a foot of concrete? No but, it can be the right tool for the
> job--as long as you don't ask too much of it and know how to use it.
>
> I've seen good Access applications and good Access/JET developers and I've
> seen sloppy, ignorant, uninformed and inexperienced developers for every
> type of data access paradigm. Customers often can't tell the difference
> until it's too late and they have made a career commitment to the consultant
> or employee--then it's even harder to purge the old and move over to a
> working solution.
>
> I've also seen deadly serious SQL Server applications that should never have
> been allowed to run. Good and bad applications are a function of the
> developer, the dba, the architect and the people that manage them--not the
> tools, engines and Visual Studio. The best tools in the world in
> inexperienced hands can still build crap.
>
> --
> __________________________________________________________________________
> William R. Vaughn
> President and Founder Beta V Corporation
> Author, Mentor, Dad, Grandpa
> Microsoft MVP
> (425) 556-9205 (Pacific time)
> Hitchhiker's Guide to Visual Studio and SQL Server (7th Edition)
> ____________________________________________________________________________________________
> "Michel Posseth [MCP]" <MSDN@posseth.com> wrote in message
> news:urDJaMvZIHA.4712@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> >
> > Well does this tell how good your Access program is , or does this tell
> > what it tells me, that the Developers that wrote this new system did not
> > do there job right
> > Or do you really believe Access outperfoms MS SQL or Oracle ?
> >
> > There are lots of people out there that call themselves Developer ,
> > Software engineer ,DBA`s ,,,,,,, but do not deserve there working titles
> > i had once to explain to a Company`s SQL DBA what BCNF stands for , and so
> > i have numerous examples that i encountered .
> >
> > And yes a well designed ACCESS database, with a well designed ACCESS GUI
> > may perfom bether as a poorly designed Oracle database with a spaghetti
> > coded Visual studio application .
> >
> > Michel
> >
> >
> >
> > "Arvin Meyer [MVP]" <a@m.com> schreef in bericht
> > news:OSsbCCtZIHA.3652@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> >> And to rebuff the myth that Access can't handle more than a few users,
> >> one of my systems had 53 users with up to 75 connections (i.e. multiple
> >> front-ends could be opened by a single user. The users included 36 on the
> >> LAN, 8 accessing remotely using an ASP front-end, and 9 with Terminal
> >> Server connections. Again, no corruption and no performance issues.
> >>
> >> This particular system has now been replaced with a PeopleSoft system
> >> running Oracle, with numerous connection issues and down-time. It has
> >> less than 3/4 of the functionality, takes more users to do the same work,
> >> and the performance is abysmal when compared to what it replaced. It cost
> >> millions to build and millions to maintain. I just love it when "real"
> >> developers go to work. It validates my entire raison d'etre for being a
> >> database developer.
> >> --
> >> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
> >> http://www.dat...
> >> http://www.mvps....
> >> http://www.acc...
> >>
> >> "Ed Metcalfe" <edmetcalfe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:%23EpehWrZIHA.1132@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> >>>
> >>> "Ed Metcalfe" <edmetcalfe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:u3SpvUrZIHA.5984@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> >>>>
> >>>> "Spam Catcher" <spamhoneypot@rogers.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:Xns9A39A7E338FDFusenethoneypotrogers@127.0.0.1...
> >>>>> If you're processing 100K rows, shouldn't that be a red flag that
> >>>>> you're
> >>>>> making access do something it's not designed to do?
> >>>>
> >>>> No! I have developed, and continue to support, three systems in which
> >>>> there is a table of nearly three million records. To date I have had no
> >>>> corruption issues and no performance issues.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ed Metcalfe.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> And just to clarify, these are multi-user systems not single-user
> >>> systems.
> >>>
> >>> Ed Metcalfe.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Arvin Meyer [MVP]

2/4/2008 12:59:00 PM

"William Vaughn" <billvaNoSPAM@betav.com> wrote in message
news:ebJdeqvZIHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> JET can indeed outperform SQL Server or Oracle or any full-blown DBMS. Of
> course it can. It's far, far simpler. A text file can out perform JET.
> Just as a screwdriver takes less power to operate than a jackhammer but
> can it cut through a foot of concrete? No but, it can be the right tool
> for the job--as long as you don't ask too much of it and know how to use
> it.
>
> I've seen good Access applications and good Access/JET developers and I've
> seen sloppy, ignorant, uninformed and inexperienced developers for every
> type of data access paradigm. Customers often can't tell the difference
> until it's too late and they have made a career commitment to the
> consultant or employee--then it's even harder to purge the old and move
> over to a working solution.
>
> I've also seen deadly serious SQL Server applications that should never
> have been allowed to run. Good and bad applications are a function of the
> developer, the dba, the architect and the people that manage them--not the
> tools, engines and Visual Studio. The best tools in the world in
> inexperienced hands can still build crap.

We are in total agreement on the above.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
http://www.dat...
http://www.mvps....
http://www.acc...

Arvin Meyer [MVP]

2/4/2008 1:03:00 PM

No one ever said that either DAO or ADO fit into .NET. The problem posed was
how to get at the data in a JET database using .NET.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
http://www.dat...
http://www.mvps....
http://www.acc...

"Cor Ligthert[MVP]" <notmyfirstname@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:4823AF96-9406-411C-9D95-7E6C9EBE57C9@microsoft.com...
> Arvin,
>
> DOA and ADO don't really fit in .Net.
>
> You can use it, as you can use as you want probably even a punch card
> reader which has drivers for Windows, but therefore a punch card reader is
> not a part of Net.
>
> Cor

Arvin Meyer [MVP]

2/4/2008 1:23:00 PM

The business solution I described was perfect for using JET as the data. It
was stable, and secure in its designed usage, and had been working for
years. It had about 100 MB of data, at least a third of which could have
been archived. What is wasn't was an enterprise solution. For that, there
were 2 choices, customize it as necessary for each of the 23 divisions, and
periodically, send the financials to the existing mainframe solution, or
build a SQL-Server back-end that would be used by all the divisions.

Actually, the first choice (i.e. customizing for each division, as
necessary) would have been more expensive than building a SQL-Server
back-end, but it would have probably been more useful and profitable due to
greater individualization. The time it would have taken would have been more
than a year, and the training about the same. The SQL-Server solution
allowed more control by a central corporate entity, and made more sense in
that respect. It would have taken only about 6 weeks to build, but the
training would have taken the same amount of time as the other.
Unfortunately, the corporation had already invested millions in a J.D.
Edwards/PeopleSoft/Oracle solution, and were not interested in making the
change to SQL-Server. As a result, they got a piece of crap designed by
code-monkeys, who new nothing about the business, or good database design,
and which did far less and cost much more to maintain than either an
Access/JET or a SQL-Server solution. So much for IT decisions made on the
golf course.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
http://www.dat...
http://www.mvps....
http://www.acc...

"Michel Posseth [MCP]" <MichelPossethMCP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:43539709-BE87-4399-9F9C-1ABB113C7AB7@microsoft.com...
> Bill
>
> I get your point ,,,
>
>
> However i was refering to the business solution Arvin described as it
> sounded that this needed the power of a full blown rdbms so see my
> comment
> in this context .
>
>
> michel
>
>
>
> "William Vaughn" wrote:
>
>> JET can indeed outperform SQL Server or Oracle or any full-blown DBMS. Of
>> course it can. It's far, far simpler. A text file can out perform JET.
>> Just
>> as a screwdriver takes less power to operate than a jackhammer but can it
>> cut through a foot of concrete? No but, it can be the right tool for the
>> job--as long as you don't ask too much of it and know how to use it.
>>
>> I've seen good Access applications and good Access/JET developers and
>> I've
>> seen sloppy, ignorant, uninformed and inexperienced developers for every
>> type of data access paradigm. Customers often can't tell the difference
>> until it's too late and they have made a career commitment to the
>> consultant
>> or employee--then it's even harder to purge the old and move over to a
>> working solution.
>>
>> I've also seen deadly serious SQL Server applications that should never
>> have
>> been allowed to run. Good and bad applications are a function of the
>> developer, the dba, the architect and the people that manage them--not
>> the
>> tools, engines and Visual Studio. The best tools in the world in
>> inexperienced hands can still build crap.
>>
>> --
>> __________________________________________________________________________
>> William R. Vaughn
>> President and Founder Beta V Corporation
>> Author, Mentor, Dad, Grandpa
>> Microsoft MVP
>> (425) 556-9205 (Pacific time)
>> Hitchhiker's Guide to Visual Studio and SQL Server (7th Edition)
>> ____________________________________________________________________________________________
>> "Michel Posseth [MCP]" <MSDN@posseth.com> wrote in message
>> news:urDJaMvZIHA.4712@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> >
>> > Well does this tell how good your Access program is , or does this
>> > tell
>> > what it tells me, that the Developers that wrote this new system did
>> > not
>> > do there job right
>> > Or do you really believe Access outperfoms MS SQL or Oracle ?
>> >
>> > There are lots of people out there that call themselves Developer ,
>> > Software engineer ,DBA`s ,,,,,,, but do not deserve there working
>> > titles
>> > i had once to explain to a Company`s SQL DBA what BCNF stands for , and
>> > so
>> > i have numerous examples that i encountered .
>> >
>> > And yes a well designed ACCESS database, with a well designed ACCESS
>> > GUI
>> > may perfom bether as a poorly designed Oracle database with a
>> > spaghetti
>> > coded Visual studio application .
>> >
>> > Michel
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Arvin Meyer [MVP]" <a@m.com> schreef in bericht
>> > news:OSsbCCtZIHA.3652@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> >> And to rebuff the myth that Access can't handle more than a few users,
>> >> one of my systems had 53 users with up to 75 connections (i.e.
>> >> multiple
>> >> front-ends could be opened by a single user. The users included 36 on
>> >> the
>> >> LAN, 8 accessing remotely using an ASP front-end, and 9 with Terminal
>> >> Server connections. Again, no corruption and no performance issues.
>> >>
>> >> This particular system has now been replaced with a PeopleSoft system
>> >> running Oracle, with numerous connection issues and down-time. It has
>> >> less than 3/4 of the functionality, takes more users to do the same
>> >> work,
>> >> and the performance is abysmal when compared to what it replaced. It
>> >> cost
>> >> millions to build and millions to maintain. I just love it when "real"
>> >> developers go to work. It validates my entire raison d'etre for being
>> >> a
>> >> database developer.
>> >> --
>> >> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
>> >> http://www.dat...
>> >> http://www.mvps....
>> >> http://www.acc...
>> >>
>> >> "Ed Metcalfe" <edmetcalfe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:%23EpehWrZIHA.1132@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> >>>
>> >>> "Ed Metcalfe" <edmetcalfe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >>> news:u3SpvUrZIHA.5984@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "Spam Catcher" <spamhoneypot@rogers.com> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:Xns9A39A7E338FDFusenethoneypotrogers@127.0.0.1...
>> >>>>> If you're processing 100K rows, shouldn't that be a red flag that
>> >>>>> you're
>> >>>>> making access do something it's not designed to do?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> No! I have developed, and continue to support, three systems in
>> >>>> which
>> >>>> there is a table of nearly three million records. To date I have had
>> >>>> no
>> >>>> corruption issues and no performance issues.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ed Metcalfe.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> And just to clarify, these are multi-user systems not single-user
>> >>> systems.
>> >>>
>> >>> Ed Metcalfe.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>

microsoft.public.inetserver.asp.components

経験談安芸胃痛地球

ashehu

Spam Catcher

Ed Metcalfe

Ed Metcalfe

Cor Ligthert [MVP]

Michel Posseth [MCP]

William Vaughn

Michel Posseth [MCP]

Arvin Meyer [MVP]

Arvin Meyer [MVP]

Arvin Meyer [MVP]

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