On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 10:54:09 +0000 (UTC), "news"
<news@fx13.iad.highwinds-media.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 19:46:28 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2005@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 07:57:39 +0000 (UTC), "news"
>><news@fx10.iad.highwinds-media.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:28:34 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>>><ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:22:23 +0000 (UTC), "news"
>>>><news@fx11.iad.highwinds-media.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 20:57:46 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2005@bigfoot.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:22:28 +0000 (UTC), "news"
>>>>>><news@fx24.iad.highwinds-media.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:36:03 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>>>>>>><ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:26:36 +0000 (UTC), "news"
>>>>>>>><news@fx21.iad.highwinds-media.com> said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 20:22:20 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>>>>>>>>><ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 05:44:05 +0000 (UTC), "news"
>>>>>>>>>><news@fx20.iad.highwinds-media.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 16:49:58 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>>>>>>>>>>><ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:28:22 +0000 (UTC), "news"
>>>>>>>>>>>><news@fx05.iad.highwinds-media.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ethnicity is determined at birth. It can neither be acquired nor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>lost. You cannot 'convert' from one ethnicity to another.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Which is why traditional Jews speak of being Jewish in terms of
>>>>>>>>>>>>nationality. Ethnicity is usually irrelevant. I have Russian ethnicity
>>>>>>>>>>>>mixed in. Ethiopian Jews have Yoruba ethnicity. We're all Jews,
>>>>>>>>>>>>though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>If you "stick to ethnicity," then we'll be talking at each other,
>>>>>>>>>>>>rather than to each other.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>So you don't accept the concept of a Jewish (Middle Eastern) ethnicity
>>>>>>>>>>>at all? It seems to me that most of us have at least some.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I do, but it's mostly irrelevant to halakha, which is how I think
>>>>>>>>>>about the "who is a Jew" question, including application to
>>>>>>>>>>conversion. Plus, as you say, "religion has no effect at all on
>>>>>>>>>>ethnicity."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I've heard the word 'tribe' used in conjunction with "who's a Jew",
>>>>>>>>>but I don't particularly care for it. It sounds like a loose
>>>>>>>>>collection of nomadic people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>[nod] I prefer the term "clan" in this context. Then, conversion can
>>>>>>>>be viewed as an adoption into the clan. And adoption is usually (but
>>>>>>>>not always) irreversible - once you're family, you're always family.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The word 'family' sugests a link by either blood or marriage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Or adoption.
>>>>>
>>>>>Indeed. But compared to blood and marriage it's a rarity.
>>>>
>>>>Indeed. But conversion *is* a rarity. So, historically, are clan
>>>>adoptions.
>>>
>>>See my other post.
>>>
>>>>>> Yisroel just used the word twice in the paragraph you
>>>>>>just quoted.
>>>>>
>>>>>But in the context of conversion being adoption.
>>>>>
>>>>>>If you don't think adoption of a child make hir part of
>>>>>>the family, it's best if you don't adopt a child.
>>>>>
>>>>>I didn't think it was worth mentioning. And I have no intention of
>>>>>adopting any children, thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>If it's
>>>>>>>blood, you're always family. If it's marriage, then you're only
>>>>>>>family until you divorce your way out. Conversion could be analogous
>>>>>>>to marriage here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It could be except that it isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>>Why isn't it? It's a way in and also a way out.
>>>>
>>>>Because by Jews there's no way out, which is why adoption is a better
>>>>analogy. And that's what we're doing in this thread - looking for a
>>>>good analogy. At least that's what I'm doing.
>>
>>Below you have confused adhering to Judaism with being a Jew.
>
>No, I haven't. See below.
I looked below. I could phrase what I said better. You're confusing
not adhering to Judaism with not being a Jew***. You don't know what
it takes to not be a Jew, once one is one,and you're confusing not
adhering to Judaism with that.
***This is what I meant in my line just above, but I left out the two
not's, as people often do in situations like this. But it's better to
be precise.
>
>>>But by whichever religion the convert leaves for, there is a way out.
>>
>>Of course there is a way out of the religion and he doesn't even have to
>>convert to "whichever religion". He can just stop observing Judaism
>>and for example keep only the Noachide laws, or not even them.
>
>Right.
>
>>>Judaism has no way of holding on to someone who has left voluntarily.
>>
>>Of course not. The only people who say otherwise are others who confuse
>>Judaism, a religion, with being a Jew.
>
>I have never done so. I fully recognise the difference.
>
>>>If someone no longer wishes to adhere to Jewish 'law', it's a fait
>>>accompli, regardless what Jewish 'law' thinks.
>>
>>A straw man. Jewish "law" "thinks" nothing that contradicts that.
>>There have always been sinners, there have always been unrepentant
>>sinners, and there have, probably always, been those who sin in just
>>about every way. Do you think Judaism doesn't know that?. There are
>>even discussions about it, for example, various motivations for sins.
>>
>>Wherever your thoughts have gone, Judaism has been there, had a cup of
>>tea, and come back already.
>>
>>As to whether a person is a Jew or not (the thing you're confusing with
>>practicing Judaism), once a Jew always a Jew.
>
>I'm not confusing anything. Someone who practises Judaism is a Jew.
Huh? If you want to clarify this you might be right, but it sounds
like you're wrong.
>Christians don't do it. Nor do Muslims. But a Jew doesn't have to
>practise Judaism.
That's right.
>As for once a Jew always a Jew, see below.
>
>> If it werent' for
>>that**, your 20 years as an Anglican might have knocked you out of the
>>Jewish people. **But that IS the law, so it's almost silly to guess
>>at what would happen if it it weren't. So you're still a Jew.
>
>I am indeed. But only because I'm a born Jew with Jewish ethnicity.
Ethniicity has nothing to do with it. Evertjan explains it well in his
reply.
>But had I converted to Judaism and thereby become a Jew and then
>subsequently converted to something else, I would no longer be either
>an adherent of Judaism nor a Jew
No. You would still be a Jew.
> because I would have abandoned the
>one thing that qualified me to be a Jew. This is where 'once a Jew
>always a Jew' breaks down.
No. This is your malarkey. Whoever told you this, go back and tell
them they were wrong. And if thought of it yourself, well, you're
wrong.
--
Meir
It is better to eat an onion in Jerusalem than a cockerel in Egypt. 1055CE