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comp.lang.python

Pycon disappointment

Bruce Eckel

3/16/2008 11:11:00 AM

If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for
me to discover that the time and money I had spent to get to my
favorite conference had been sold to vendors, presenting me as a
captive audience they could pitch to.

I believe that this year's Pycon organizers suffered from inexperience
and naivete, because they didn't know that some vendors will ask for
anything just to see how far they can push it. And that it's a
negotiation, that you must push back rather than give in just because
the conference might get some money for it. More importantly, that the
imperative to grow Pycon does not mean "at all costs." I've already
spoken to more than one vendor who was dismayed by the state of
things, so we are not talking about all vendors here by any means.

At first the morning plenary sessions -- where the entire conference
audience was in a single room -- just seemed a bit commercial. But
then I slowly figured out that the so-called "diamond keynotes" were
actually sold to vendors. It must have sounded great to some vendors:
you get to pitch to everyone and nothing else is going on so the
audience is trapped.

But it gets worse. The lightning talks, traditionally the best, newest
and edgiest part of the conference, were also sold like commercial air
time. Vendors were guaranteed first pick on lightning talk slots, and
we in the audience, expectantly looking forward to interesting and
entertaining content, again started to feel like things were awfully
commercial. And what seemed like a good idea, moving lightning talks
into plenary sessions with no competition, began to look like another
way to deliver a captive audience to vendors.

What was supremely frustrating was discovering that the people wanting
to give REAL lightning talks had been pushed off the end of the list
by this guarantee to vendors. We didn't get to see the good stuff, the
real stuff, because that time had been sold.

On top of that, the quality of the presentations was unusually low.
I'd say that 80% were not worth going to -- there were definitely some
good ones, but it was a lot of pain to discover them.

In my opinion, open spaces should have had greater status and billing,
with eyes-forward talks and vendor sessions offered only as possible
alternatives. Especially, vendor sessions should not be presented as
"keynotes" during plenary sessions. I think it took a little while
for people to catch on to the idea that they could have control of
their own experience through the open spaces and that the main
offerings were not the only option.

The worst thing about the whole experience was the feeling that
someone was trying to trick me and control me into watching these
things, presenting them under the guise of real keynotes and real
lightning talks. My trust has been violated. I paid a lot, in both
money and time, to be at this conference just to be herded into a room
and have my eyeballs sold to the highest bidder. And it's going to bug
me, especially when I think about coming back next year. I'm going to
need a lot of reassurance that this isn't going to happen again.

I think a lot of people have been caught up in the idea that we need
to commercialize Python, and ride some kind of wave of publicity the
way that Java and C# and Rails seem to have done. This kind of
thinking leads to bad, impulsive decisions that can have long-lasting
or even permanent negative impacts on the community. Maybe things
don't seem to be happening fast enough in comparison with those
commercial endeavors, but this is a grass-roots movement. It's never
been about moving as fast as you can. It's always been about vision,
not tactics. For many, it's fun and exciting and really important to
"catch the wave," but the wave passes and then you've just exhausted
yourself chasing a brief bump in the water. Python may not have caught
any particular wave, but it's always grown, steadily.

I know what the argument for the results of Pycon 2008 will be: we
needed the money. My answer: it's not worth it. If this is what you
have to do to grow the conference, then don't. If the choice is
between selling my experience to vendors and reducing the size of the
conference, then cut the size of the conference. Keep the quality of
my experience as the primary decision criteria, or I'll stop coming.
28 Answers

Ben Finney

3/16/2008 11:47:00 AM

0

Bruce Eckel <lists.eckel@gmail.com> writes:

> My trust has been violated. I paid a lot, in both money and time, to
> be at this conference just to be herded into a room and have my
> eyeballs sold to the highest bidder.

Hear hear.

Conference organisers, past and future, take note: Attention of
attendees is *not* a commodity to be traded. Just because some parties
will pay significant sums for that, it is *not* your place to sell it
to them.

Your place as conference organisers, rather, is to provide value to
paying attendees. Their trust is hard earned, and easily lost.

--
\ "Oh, I realize it's a penny here and a penny there, but look at |
`\ me: I've worked myself up from nothing to a state of extreme |
_o__) poverty." -- Groucho Marx |
Ben Finney

Mike Driscoll

3/16/2008 1:42:00 PM

0


> But it gets worse. The lightning talks, traditionally the best, newest
> and edgiest part of the conference, were also sold like commercial air
> time. Vendors were guaranteed first pick on lightning talk slots, and
> we in the audience, expectantly looking forward to interesting and
> entertaining content, again started to feel like things were awfully
> commercial. And what seemed like a good idea, moving lightning talks
> into plenary sessions with no competition, began to look like another
> way to deliver a captive audience to vendors.
>

This was my first time at PyCon and when I went to the Lightning Talks
yesterday, I was also under the impression that they were for
attendees. About half of the ones I saw were commercials. It was weird
and made me wonder if they were always like that.

> On top of that, the quality of the presentations was unusually low.
> I'd say that 80% were not worth going to -- there were definitely some
> good ones, but it was a lot of pain to discover them.
>

Do you mean the "official" presentations or the lightning talks? I
thought both were kind of bad. Jeff Rush was great in both of the
sessions I saw and the gaming presenters were also good. But I saw a
lot of people who had never presented and were unprepared. In fact,
one didn't have any code whatsoever to share and the other one only
started showing some code during the last 10 minutes of his time.

The sponsor keynotes weren't all bad. I thought the White Oaks guy was
quite sincere and it was cool to hear about Python from the business
side. And the Google rep probably had the slickest presentation I've
ever seen. In retrospect, I'm not sure what it had to do with Python
though.

Mike

aahz

3/16/2008 2:18:00 PM

0

In article <5bd37c10-af5d-4254-8799-49c762673a3e@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Bruce Eckel <lists.eckel@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for
>me to discover that the time and money I had spent to get to my
>favorite conference had been sold to vendors, presenting me as a
>captive audience they could pitch to.

Ouch. I'm probably one of the few organizers currently paying much
attention to c.l.py -- because I'm also one of the few who's not at
PyCon. We debated this extensively before going ahead, and we decided
it was worth an experiment. If your feedback is at all representative,
this won't happen again, I assure you.

I'm forwarding your post to the semi-private pycon-organizers list
(pretty much anyone can join -- more volunteers are always welcome -- but
you have to join to see the archives) to make sure everyone sees it.

>I believe that this year's Pycon organizers suffered from inexperience
>and naivete, because they didn't know that some vendors will ask for
>anything just to see how far they can push it.

Actually, it was our idea to offer something in return for the
sponsorship.

>On top of that, the quality of the presentations was unusually low.
>I'd say that 80% were not worth going to -- there were definitely some
>good ones, but it was a lot of pain to discover them.

Just to make sure, you're talking about the vendor presentations, right?

>I think a lot of people have been caught up in the idea that we need
>to commercialize Python, and ride some kind of wave of publicity the
>way that Java and C# and Rails seem to have done.

Not in my observation. What we were trying to do was to increase
sponsorship to decrease the cost to attendees -- we have NO interest in
pushing the commercialization of Python.

>I know what the argument for the results of Pycon 2008 will be: we
>needed the money. My answer: it's not worth it. If this is what you
>have to do to grow the conference, then don't. If the choice is
>between selling my experience to vendors and reducing the size of the
>conference, then cut the size of the conference. Keep the quality of
>my experience as the primary decision criteria, or I'll stop coming.

That was our intention. Apparently it didn't work for you. I'll wait
for more feedback before I make up my mind about whether your experience
was common.

And no, we don't need the money so badly that we can't afford to turn
away sponsors who demand this particular benefit.
--
Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.python...

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

Aaron

3/16/2008 2:31:00 PM

0


> In my opinion, open spaces should have had greater status and billing,
> with eyes-forward talks and vendor sessions offered only as possible
> alternatives. Especially, vendor sessions should not be presented as
> "keynotes" during plenary sessions. I think it took a little while
> for people to catch on to the idea that they could have control of
> their own experience through the open spaces and that the main
> offerings were not the only option.

This is an excellent suggestion and observation. Sold sponsorships
are fine as long as they are billed as such. Labels on the vendor
speeches indicated they were sold as ad space would be great, as well
as more strongly emphasizing the ad hoc discussion spaces.

Fuzzyman

3/16/2008 3:00:00 PM

0

On Mar 16, 11:10 am, Bruce Eckel <lists.ec...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip..]
> But it gets worse. The lightning talks, traditionally the best, newest
> and edgiest part of the conference, were also sold like commercial air
> time. Vendors were guaranteed first pick on lightning talk slots, and
> we in the audience, expectantly looking forward to interesting and
> entertaining content, again started to feel like things were awfully
> commercial. And what seemed like a good idea, moving lightning talks
> into plenary sessions with no competition, began to look like another
> way to deliver a captive audience to vendors.
> coming.

I have a conflict of interests - coming to PyCon from a sponsor
company and having given a lightning talk. But I *kind* of agree with
you. Most of the sponsor lightning talks were pretty dull. I *hope*
mine was one of the exceptions. (Resolver One demo.) ;-)

This isn't new though. Last year (my only other PyCon) all the
sponsors gave lightning talks. The difference is that there were more
sponsors this year I guess...

Personally I think 'sponsor keynotes' was a mistake. Not a huge
mistake, but nonetheless...

Michael Foord
Resolver Systems

Fuzzyman

3/16/2008 3:01:00 PM

0


> "It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
> --Bill Harlan

That's a great quote that I had not heard before. :-)

Michael Foord
http://www.manning...

Barry Hawkins

3/16/2008 3:20:00 PM

0

On Mar 16, 9:18 am, a...@pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
> In article <5bd37c10-af5d-4254-8799-49c762673...@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> Bruce Eckel  <lists.ec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for
> >me to discover that the time and money I had spent to get to my
> >favorite conference had been sold to vendors, presenting me as a
> >captive audience they could pitch to.
>
> Ouch.  I'm probably one of the few organizers currently paying much
> attention to c.l.py -- because I'm also one of the few who's not at
> PyCon.  We debated this extensively before going ahead, and we decided
> it was worth an experiment.  If your feedback is at all representative,
> this won't happen again, I assure you.
[...]
> >I believe that this year's Pycon organizers suffered from inexperience
> >and naivete, because they didn't know that some vendors will ask for
> >anything just to see how far they can push it.
>
> Actually, it was our idea to offer something in return for the
> sponsorship.
[...]
Ashz, thanks for offering some explanation. It is my sincere hope
that the organizers will look upon the aforementioned experiment as a
failed one. I shared the same perception as Bruce; most "keynotes"
and lightning talks were anemic vendor pitches that really gutted the
spirit of what I experienced last year. In meeting new people this
year, I have had more than one first-time attendee ask me if PyCon
lightning talks "are always like that." I have also heard from a
couple of folks I would consider PyCon elders who were not happy with
what lightning talks became this year.

I was one of the 15 or so persons who had a lightning talk that ended
up in overflow for the Saturday talks. At the end of the regular
time, we were all brought forward to be told that we would not do
overflow talks. Standing there in the huddle, I looked around, and
it appeared that we were mostly non-vendors. It was pretty crummy to
see that real PyCon lightning talks had been sacrificed in favor of
subjecting Pythonistas to rather dry vendor presentations. Some of
the vendor presenters even had a tone that sounded like "my boss is
making me do this." PyCon lightning talks are the stuff of legend; I
implore the organizers to learn well from this costly experiment, and
let's not go there again. Ever.

> >On top of that, the quality of the presentations was unusually low.
> >I'd say that 80% were not worth going to -- there were definitely some
> >good ones, but it was a lot of pain to discover them.
>
> Just to make sure, you're talking about the vendor presentations, right?
[...]
I'll step out and say that some of the non-vendor talks were quite
weak. The most severe was a talk on Stackless where the original
speaker was unable to be here and someone got up and clicked through
the slide deck at a very fast pace. I thought the person had stepped
in at the last minute, but later learned that he had volunteered with
a couple of weeks' notice. Additionally, the original speaker had
Andrew Dalke's *exact* slide deck from his Stackless talk last year.
One first-time attendee told me over lunch that he was going to
recommend to his employer that they not pay to send their programmers
to PyCon next year based on what he had seen in this year's talks. I
know that's an unpleasant message, but in the interest of preserving
PyCon's quality, I'm willing to be the jerk of a messenger.

> >I know what the argument for the results of Pycon 2008 will be: we
> >needed the money. My answer: it's not worth it. If this is what you
> >have to do to grow the conference, then don't. If the choice is
> >between selling my experience to vendors and reducing the size of the
> >conference, then cut the size of the conference. Keep the quality of
> >my experience as the primary decision criteria, or I'll stop coming.
>
> That was our intention.  Apparently it didn't work for you.  I'll wait
> for more feedback before I make up my mind about whether your experience
> was common.
[...]
Hopefully the surveys and this thread will be filled with feedback
from the participants. Also, check http://twitter... for some
further anecdotal evidence.

Jacob Kaplan-Moss

3/16/2008 3:52:00 PM

0

On Mar 16, 9:59 am, Fuzzyman <fuzzy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This isn't new though. Last year (my only other PyCon) all the
> sponsors gave lightning talks. The difference is that there were more
> sponsors this year I guess...

The difference (from my POV as the guy who helped plan and run the
lightning talks this year and last) was that last year the sponsor
talks were at a separate time, and clearly labeled as "Sponsor
Lightning Talks". A *lot* of folks still showed up, and they didn't
feel lied-to when they got product or company pitches.

Jacob

Jacob Kaplan-Moss

3/16/2008 3:57:00 PM

0

On Mar 16, 6:10 am, Bruce Eckel <lists.ec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But it gets worse. The lightning talks, traditionally the best, newest
> and edgiest part of the conference, were also sold like commercial air
> time.

Thanks for being harsh here, Bruce. I've been responsible for
organizing the lightning talks at PyCon over the past few years and
Saturday's talks -- where a grand total of four community talks were
given between twelve sponsor talks -- was the low point. I volunteer
to run the lightning talks because they're usually by *far* my
favorite time of the conference. Yesterday wasn't.

> What was supremely frustrating was discovering that the people wanting
> to give REAL lightning talks had been pushed off the end of the list
> by this guarantee to vendors. We didn't get to see the good stuff, the
> real stuff, because that time had been sold.

Tell me about it. I felt like crap putting up a sign-up sheet with
four names on it.

Again, thanks for your harsh words, Bruce. Needed to be said.

Jacob

fumanchu

3/16/2008 4:05:00 PM

0

On Mar 16, 7:18 am, a...@pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
> Bruce Eckel <lists.ec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for
> > me to discover that the time and money I had spent to get to my
> > favorite conference had been sold to vendors, presenting me as a
> > captive audience they could pitch to.
>
> Ouch. I'm probably one of the few organizers currently paying much
> attention to c.l.py -- because I'm also one of the few who's not at
> PyCon. We debated this extensively before going ahead, and we decided
> it was worth an experiment. If your feedback is at all representative,
> this won't happen again, I assure you.

Add me to the list, then, please. I heard from several people that the
entire first day was a bit wasted, that even the non-vendor talks on
Friday were rather dull and simple.

This is my third PyCon, and I've found a reasonably-sized cadre of
people who come for the hallway conversations plus a Bof or two,
having given up on hearing anything new, useful, or inspiring in the
talks. There are several people I know who would like to see a more
advanced academic track.

> What we were trying to do was to increase sponsorship to decrease
> the cost to attendees -- we have NO interest in pushing the
> commercialization of Python.

Can't fault you for that. But perhaps we're seeing the limit of what
that approach can provide.


Robert Brewer
fumanchu@aminus.org