Asp Forum - Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer

Steve Holden

2/16/2008 1:46:00 PM

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]
> Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've
> prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
> step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
> on...
>
> perl and it's libraries.
>
I'm sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and
receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run.

> Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting
> with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
> syntax-thing of python again.
>
Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no
compulsion to use any particular tool.

> Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if
> you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
> brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.
>
And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into
Ilias Lazaridis.

I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian, but
I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve. I hope you
have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.hold...

9 Answers

Ilias Lazaridis

2/17/2008 2:00:00 AM

On 16 Feß, 15:45, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
> [...]> Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've
> > prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
> > step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
> > on...
>
> > perl and it's libraries.
>
> I'm sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and
> receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run.

The perl projects can decide themselfs if they like to adopt the most
essential things:

http://case.lazaridis.com/wi...

I do not analyze languages and communities anymore, thus there is no
need for them to 'worry', e.g. that I attemp to transform them to an
high evolutive language system.

Ruby and Python were excellent for this (Ruby = weak puppets, Python =
egoism driven).

I'll just use perl until I've implemented my own language, around 2010
to 2011, which will be most possibly close to perl (or a perl
extension, if technically possibly and no legal barriers with
libraries).

Perl is available in nearly every webserver, and has very nice a
logical OO functionality (although it's not very good marketed, this
OO part). And perl keeps you highly independent, you can work with
simple systems, close to the OS.

> > Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting
> > with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
> > syntax-thing of python again.
>
> Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no
> compulsion to use any particular tool.

As said above: python (essentially it's community in a wider scope) is
an ideal domain to analyze how human egoism blocks evolution of
technical systems. Thus, python is an important educational tool.

> > Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if
> > you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
> > brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.
>
> And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into
> Ilias Lazaridis.

No, I'll be bound to python for some time, a year or so.

And good news: as I cannot post to the trac-user group, I'll post the
topics to comp.lang.python.

(you can thank the project lead of trac, his lack of courage is the
reason that the developers get out of control)

> I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian,

The IT industry has failed to provide simple standards, systems. AI
has failed to produce intelligent systems. So, maybe the IT industry
is somewhat pedestrian, as its failure to control egoism has led to
terrible software systems.

Restarting from the beginning can give the impression of a "learning
child".

> but I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve.

http://core.lazaridis.com/wiki/Activ...

> I hope you have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers.

As said, the analysis phase is over.

But even if not: I've 'survived' within comp.lang.lisp for some months

http://groups.google.gr/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/87980954f111e965/af5f19a1c8101a93?lnk=st&q=dynamite+and+teflon+ilias#af5f19...

I think no language community can be worser.

-

Btw:

If you would adopt the open-source-processes to digital electronic
design, we would work today still with 8086.

http://case.lazaridis.com/wi...Lead

.

Ilias Lazaridis

2/18/2008 10:58:00 AM

[RESEND of answer to all initial groups]

On 16 Öåâ, 15:45, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:

> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> [...]> Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've
> > prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
> > step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
> > on...

> > perl and it's libraries.

> I'm sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and
> receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run.

The perl projects can decide themselfs if they like to adopt the most
essential things:

http://case.lazaridis.com/wi...

I do not analyze languages and communities anymore, thus there is no
need for them to 'worry', e.g. that I attemp to transform them to an
high evolutive language system.

Ruby and Python were excellent for this (Ruby = weak puppets, Python =
egoism driven).

I'll just use perl until I've implemented my own language, around 2010
to 2011, which will be most possibly close to perl (or a perl
extension, if technically possibly and no legal barriers with
libraries).

Perl is available in nearly every webserver, and has very nice a
logical OO functionality (although it's not very good marketed, this
OO part). And perl keeps you highly independent, you can work with
simple systems, close to the OS.

> > Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting
> > with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
> > syntax-thing of python again.

> Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no
> compulsion to use any particular tool.

As said above: python (essentially it's community in a wider scope) is
an ideal domain to analyze how human egoism blocks evolution of
technical systems. Thus, python is an important educational tool.

> > Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if
> > you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
> > brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.

> And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into
> Ilias Lazaridis.

No, I'll be bound to python for some time, a year or so.

And good news: as I cannot post to the trac-user group, I'll post the
topics to comp.lang.python.

(you can thank the project lead of trac, his lack of courage is the
reason that the developers get out of control)

> I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian,

The IT industry has failed to provide simple standards, systems. AI
has failed to produce intelligent systems. So, maybe the IT industry
is somewhat pedestrian, as its failure to control egoism has led to
terrible software systems.

Restarting from the beginning can give the impression of a "learning
child".

> but I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve.

http://core.lazaridis.com/wiki/Activ...

> I hope you have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers.

As said, the analysis phase is over.

But even if not: I've 'survived' within comp.lang.lisp for some months

http://groups.google.gr/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thr......

I think no language community can be worser.

-

Btw:

If you would adopt the open-source-processes to digital electronic
design, we would work today still with 8086.

http://case.lazaridis.com/wi...Lead

.

Dmitry

11/25/2010 9:29:00 PM

On Nov 25, 9:06 am, Andrii Lundiak <land...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 25, 12:13 am, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 24, 9:04 pm, Andrii Lundiak <land...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> There are a couple of suffixes in Lithuanian that are added to
> > > > >> geographical names to denote a person from there (a bit like -er in
> > > > >> English): Kaunas -kauniškis, Vilnius - vilnietis. It's not common to
> > > > >> hear them used on foreign place names (Lund - lundiškis) but I suppose
> > > > >> there's no rule that says it can't be done.
>
> > > > > Thanks to J. Anderson and Tadas Blinda.
> > > > > Good to know, that somebody are reading my posts.
>
> > > Anyway now i see such relation:
>
> > > Papageitaucher (Germany) = Papegaaiduiker (Netherland) =
> > > Macareux (French) = Mormonas (Italian) ........
>
> > "Mormonas" is definitely not "puffin" in Italian.
>
> to Dmitry:
> Thanks for Latvian variant ...
> And for @English "Lundoner"@ I am not sure, but anyway thanks, now I
> have new idea, and will research it via Google.
> THANKS
>
> to Tadas Bind - Yes, I was wrong, it is for Lithuanian ....
> I was in a hurry, and that is why i have made this mistake.
> THANKS anyway.
>
> Question for all:
> So as Understood, it hardly to research something in Scottish/Celtic/
> Welsh languages here.
> Can you suggest me some places, where I could ask about my questions?

There are some Welsh forums, for example this one http://www.antimoon.com/forum...
You can try to ask there.

>
> Anyway, these questions are still valid for me:
>
> 1) How German people will say about citizen from Lund ???
> 2) How Scottish people will say about citizen from Lund ???
> 3) How Scottish people understand in their own language word
> "lund" ???
> 4) What about Danemark ??? (these both question about citizen and
> word) ???- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Tadas Blinda

11/25/2010 11:07:00 PM

On Nov 26, 8:29 am, Dmitry <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:

> There are some Welsh forums, for example this onehttp://www.antimoon.com/forum...
> You can try to ask there.

Dmitry, do you live anywhere near Wales? The last time I visited UK I
made a point of visiting Wales to observe the linguistic situation.
Of course I admire the dedication of the Welsh speakers who value
their native language and keep it alive, especially those who pass it
on to their kids. It is fascinating and admirable that they don't
give up in the face of all those constantly telling them that they are
"crazy" and wasting their time". (Like watching rubbish on television
instead wouldn't be "wasting time"?) That includes a majority of
their fellow countrymen saying things like that. (Don't know what %
claimed to speak Welsh in the last Census, but that sort of self-
reporting has to me taken with a grain of salt anyway.) Idealism is a
rare commodity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CsDuUh_iVE&featu...

Curiously, if you don't focus on the unknown syllables, the overall
"sound impression" that Welsh gives me is a little similar to that of
Norwegian. Just a coincidence, I guess.

Here's something from another nation that loves its language and its
music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcqcxCtx0fc&featu...

Andrii Lundiak

11/26/2010 8:48:00 AM

On Nov 26, 1:06 am, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
> On Nov 26, 8:29 am, Dmitry <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
> > There are some Welsh forums, for example this onehttp://www.antimoon.com/forum...
> > You can try to ask there.
>
> Dmitry, do you live anywhere near Wales? The last time I visited UK I
> made a point of visiting Wales to observe the linguistic situation.
> Of course I admire the dedication of the Welsh speakers who value
> their native language and keep it alive, especially those who pass it
> on to their kids. It is fascinating and admirable that they don't
> give up in the face of all those constantly telling them that they are
> "crazy" and wasting their time". (Like watching rubbish on television
> instead wouldn't be "wasting time"?) That includes a majority of
> their fellow countrymen saying things like that. (Don't know what %
> claimed to speak Welsh in the last Census, but that sort of self-
> reporting has to me taken with a grain of salt anyway.) Idealism is a
> rare commodity.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CsDuUh_iVE&featu...
>
> Curiously, if you don't focus on the unknown syllables, the overall
> "sound impression" that Welsh gives me is a little similar to that of
> Norwegian. Just a coincidence, I guess.
>
> Here's something from another nation that loves its language and its
> music:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcqcxCtx0fc&featu...

Ok.. Thanks to all.
Sorry for cross posting, but this is not banned by rules of Google
groups (5 gr limit)

Was interesting in touch of Scottish/Welsh culture and history...
I've got many interesting ideas, it will be helpful for me anyway.

??? Still, I don't know how Germany(Deutsch) and Denmark(Danish)
people call citizen of Lund. ???
I would be very appreciated in help...

Tadas Blinda

11/26/2010 9:01:00 AM

On Nov 26, 7:48 pm, Andrii Lundiak <land...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 26, 1:06 am, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 26, 8:29 am, Dmitry <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
> > > There are some Welsh forums, for example this onehttp://www.antimoon.com/forum...
> > > You can try to ask there.
>
> > Dmitry, do you live anywhere near Wales? The last time I visited UK I
> > made a point of visiting Wales to observe the linguistic situation.
> > Of course I admire the dedication of the Welsh speakers who value
> > their native language and keep it alive, especially those who pass it
> > on to their kids. It is fascinating and admirable that they don't
> > give up in the face of all those constantly telling them that they are
> > "crazy" and wasting their time". (Like watching rubbish on television
> > instead wouldn't be "wasting time"?) That includes a majority of
> > their fellow countrymen saying things like that. (Don't know what %
> > claimed to speak Welsh in the last Census, but that sort of self-
> > reporting has to me taken with a grain of salt anyway.) Idealism is a
> > rare commodity.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CsDuUh_iVE&featu...
>
> > Curiously, if you don't focus on the unknown syllables, the overall
> > "sound impression" that Welsh gives me is a little similar to that of
> > Norwegian. Just a coincidence, I guess.
>
> > Here's something from another nation that loves its language and its
> > music:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcqcxCtx0fc&featu...
>
> Ok.. Thanks to all.
> Sorry for cross posting, but this is not banned by rules of Google
> groups (5 gr limit)
>
> Was interesting in touch of Scottish/Welsh culture and history...
> I've got many interesting ideas, it will be helpful for me anyway.
>
> ??? Still, I don't know how Germany(Deutsch) and Denmark(Danish)
> people call citizen of Lund. ???
> I would be very appreciated in help...

German is very simple. Just add -er : ein Lunder.

But why are you so concerned. Isn't the resemblance of your Slavic
surname to the Norsk place-name just a coïncidence?

Valtsu

11/26/2010 2:31:00 PM

On 26.11.2010 1:06, Tadas Blinda wrote:
> On Nov 26, 8:29 am, Dmitry<dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CsDuUh_iVE&featu...
>
> Curiously, if you don't focus on the unknown syllables, the overall
> "sound impression" that Welsh gives me is a little similar to that of
> Norwegian. Just a coincidence, I guess.
>
Due to bad connection it took an hour before the above mentioned video
started playing. By the time I had forgotten it. My first thought was
that this must be icelandic. ;-)

tv

Andrii Lundiak

11/26/2010 3:18:00 PM

On Nov 26, 4:31 pm, Valtsu <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote:
> On 26.11.2010 1:06, Tadas Blinda wrote:> On Nov 26, 8:29 am, Dmitry<dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CsDuUh_iVE&featu...
>
> > Curiously, if you don't focus on the unknown syllables, the overall
> > "sound impression" that Welsh gives me is a little similar to that of
> > Norwegian. Just a coincidence, I guess.
>
> Due to bad connection it took an hour before the above mentioned video
> started playing. By the time I had forgotten it. My first thought was
> that this must be icelandic. ;-)
>
> tv

to Tadas Blinda:

First of all - do you think Denmark(Danish) are talking about Lund's
people as swedish - LUNDENSARE ???
Cause Lund was Danish city time ago ....

......

I just want to have list of HOW all neighbors of Lund city are talking
about citizen of Lund.
http://lundiak.bl.../2010/11/citizen-offrom... - here is
my report.

I JUST know one thing - @LUNDIAK@ - this is my surname:
a) this is definitely not Nordic rather Slavic)
AND
b) using this word (lundiak) Hungarian(Magyar) are talking about
citizen of Lund.

So, using this google group, and you my dear (all) I figure out how
different are all countries in describing citizen from Lund.
And I am more closer to understand from where could be first person
originally - who called by Lundiak surname.
And want to get more info which form of my surname was first.

for now I have 2 strong variants:
1) Magyar ...
2) Slavic (Lundiak is most explained as son of some person with first
or last name "Lund")
3) other variants (in title of my blog http://lundiak.bl...)

Tadas Blinda

11/26/2010 8:20:00 PM

Well, Andrii, I am a linguist, and linguistics is a science. For
etymologies (and origins of names) there are scientific principles.
First off, remember what language is. It is a system of communication
used by people, it has a sociological reality rooted in time and
place. You have to wonder how likely it is that someone from Lund
emigrated to Hungary and was called "Lundiak" there. Do you have any
evidence for this? Have you checked the Hungarian phone book to see
if there are any.many people with the surname "Lundiak" in Hungary?

What part of the Slavic world do you come from? You know that -ak is
a common Slavic suffix (e.g. Bosnia – Bosniak). Maybe a more fruitful
direction of research would be to contemplate where the Lund(i)- came
from before it had -ak added? Maybe a geographical name? Can you
find out if there is a village in your country with a name something
like "Lund(i)"?

One of the things about etymology that displeases the general public
is that due to the very limited nature of written records (only around
the Mediterranean do they go back more than a couple of thousand
years) we often hit a dead end and can go no further in our research.
For example, if you find there is a village in your country with a
name something like "Lund(i)", you might ask "why"? Unfortunately,
due to lack of written records, it will probably be impossible to say
"why". The only other thing linguistic researchers can do then is to
look for 'cognates' – related (similar) words in other Indo-European
languages.

For example, for a long time the etymology of the name of Lithuania's
greatest river – Nemunas – was a mystery. Now it turns out that the
most likely explanation is that it is related to an old Indo-European
word for 'snake' (which still exists in some Indian languages, India
being more richly endowed with snakes ?). The idea is that from up on
a hill near the river you can see the river winding away like a snake
– the word 'serpentine' comes to mind. Since that particular 'snake'
word had dropped out of Lithuanian (Lithuania having very few snakes,
and only small ones), that is why for a long time the name 'Nemunas'
was a mystery.)

On Nov 27, 2:18 am, Andrii Lundiak <land...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 26, 4:31 pm, Valtsu <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote:
>
> > On 26.11.2010 1:06, Tadas Blinda wrote:> On Nov 26, 8:29 am, Dmitry<dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CsDuUh_iVE&featu...
>
> > > Curiously, if you don't focus on the unknown syllables, the overall
> > > "sound impression" that Welsh gives me is a little similar to that of
> > > Norwegian. Just a coincidence, I guess.
>
> > Due to bad connection it took an hour before the above mentioned video
> > started playing. By the time I had forgotten it. My first thought was
> > that this must be icelandic. ;-)
>
> > tv
>
> to Tadas Blinda:
>
> First of all - do you think Denmark(Danish) are talking about Lund's
> people as swedish - LUNDENSARE ???
> Cause Lund was Danish city time ago ....
>
> .....
>
> I just want to have list of HOW all neighbors of Lund city are talking
> about citizen of Lund.http://lundiak.bl.../2010/11/citizen-offrom-... here is
> my report.
>
> I JUST know one thing - @LUNDIAK@ - this is my surname:
> a) this is definitely not Nordic rather Slavic)
> AND
> b) using this word (lundiak) Hungarian(Magyar) are talking about
> citizen of Lund.
>
> So, using this google group, and you my dear (all) I figure out how
> different are all countries in describing citizen from Lund.
> And I am more closer to understand from where could be first person
> originally - who called by Lundiak surname.
> And want to get more info which form of my surname was first.
>
> for now I have 2 strong variants:
> 1) Magyar ...
> 2) Slavic (Lundiak is most explained as son of some person with first
> or last name "Lund")
> 3) other variants (in title of my bloghttp://lundiak.bl...)

comp.lang.python

Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer

Steve Holden

Ilias Lazaridis

Ilias Lazaridis

Dmitry

Tadas Blinda

Andrii Lundiak

Tadas Blinda

Valtsu

Andrii Lundiak

Tadas Blinda

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