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comp.lang.ruby

Can Ruby stay ahead ?

Suresh Kk

4/11/2009 3:17:00 PM

Will Ruby find it difficult to stay in the first 10 languages list
on Tiobe Index ?

According to one of my friends views :

The emergence of new languages like Clojure, Scala, Fan, indicate to
this. All these new languages have concurrency support and are faster
than Ruby. Python is improving constantly. Its perfomance has always
been
faster than Ruby, and it is very scalable, stable and widely used.
Perl is coming back with its new avatar "Perl 6" armed with types.
PHP may keep its present postion. Groovy slowly ascends the ladder.

Inspite of all his comments, My favourite language is Ruby.
I have been using ruby for the last 3 years. It has vastly helped me
to make my daily office work easier. Hopefully 1.9.1 compatible issue
with existing libraries will be solved within months.

Exprert Rubyists, Please share your views on this matter to enliven
my kind of average rubyists.

Long Live Ruby !!
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-....
25 Answers

Phlip

4/11/2009 3:21:00 PM

0

Suresh Kk wrote:

> Will Ruby find it difficult to stay in the first 10 languages list
> on Tiobe Index ?

Languages are on that list for a different reason. Some have corporate support,
some have academic support, and some have a critical mass of projects using them.

Ruby is heading towards all three of those reasons to stay on the list.

Robert Dober

4/11/2009 3:55:00 PM

0

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> wrote:
> Suresh Kk wrote:
>
>> Will Ruby =A0find it =A0difficult to stay in the first 10 languages list
>> on =A0Tiobe =A0Index =A0?
>
> Languages are on that list for a different reason. Some have corporate
> support, some have academic support, and some have a critical mass of
> projects using them.
>
> Ruby is heading towards all three of those reasons to stay on the list.
>
Forgive my ignorance, should language X be on the Tiobe Index? For
what reason? Never heard of that one before (duking, but that is the
truth).
Cheers
R



--=20
Si tu veux construire un bateau ...
Ne rassemble pas des hommes pour aller chercher du bois, pr=E9parer des
outils, r=E9partir les t=E2ches, all=E9ger le travail=85 mais enseigne aux
gens la nostalgie de l=92infini de la mer.

If you want to build a ship, don=92t herd people together to collect
wood and don=92t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to
long for the endless immensity of the sea.

--
Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry

Marc Heiler

4/11/2009 4:21:00 PM

0

> Perl is coming back with its new avatar "Perl 6" armed with types.

Do we have first April again? :)

Reminds me of GNU Hurd.

I heard that it will be ready next year.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-....

Phlip

4/11/2009 4:23:00 PM

0

Robert Dober wrote:

> Forgive my ignorance, should language X be on the Tiobe Index? For
> what reason? Never heard of that one before (duking, but that is the
> truth).

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/...

Java is number 1 due (in my exalted opinion) to corporate support, a huge
critical mass of active projects using it, academic support, and "enterprise
support". The latter is roughly equivalent to "we had to spend a quintillion
dollars on it last quarter, so it must be powerful stuff!"

C is number 2 due to almost complete saturation of the systems and OS
programming layers. The next layer above machine language is C, so if you have
silicon, you need C between it and your higher level systems.

C++ is number 3 due to complete bidirectional integration with C, plus all the
same reasons as Java, plus C-like (or better) performance.

PhP is 4 because - until Rails - it was the default choice for RAD website
development. Non-RAD website development is very rare...

Visual Basic is 5 because MS markets it to your non-technical boss as "simpler
than all those fragile languages that cause bugs." 'nuff said.

JavaScript is on the list because it extends HTML to make your browser actually
do stuff. It goes where HTML can't go.

C# made the list because it's a Java clone, and hence a "duopoly" in the same
Enterprise space.

And the Duck Typing languages - Perl, Python, Ruby - are on the list due to the
LAMP website architecture, where P stands for any interPreted language.

Lua is on the list because it provides the scripting layer - and Duck Typing -
for video games.

Charles Oliver Nutter

4/11/2009 7:14:00 PM

0

To be honest, I think the most important thing Rubyists could do to help
Ruby grow and become more relevant would be to more whole-heartedly
support alternative implementations like JRuby, IronRuby, and MacRuby
that target new domains of developers on other platforms.

The truth is the C implementations of Ruby are only one part of our
quest to conquer the world...there are a lot of developers out there on
existing VMs and platforms that need to be brought into the fold. And
they're not going to leave those platforms. The best way to bring them
over is to embrace the Ruby implementations for those platforms, and do
everything possible to make sure they're top-notch. The alternative is
losing mindshare to languages like Groovy or Scala on the JVM or
IronPython, F#, or C# on the CLR.

The recent migration by Twitter of key infrastructure to Scala is a
perfect example of this.

But this also raises another question: Does the Ruby community want to
be all-inclusive? More and more I see Ruby groups splintering into the
"regulars" and the "elites", and sometimes the elite groups splinter
even further. Many of the Ruby old guard want to keep Ruby an exclusive
club, and I think that elitism hurts the community.

I believe it's important for Ruby to continue growing and to draw in as
many Java, .NET, and other platform developers as possible. I believe
it's important for the Ruby community to do more to help these
alternative Ruby platforms be successful. But I don't know yet whether
it's what the Ruby community wants.

- Charlie

Suresh Kk wrote:
> Will Ruby find it difficult to stay in the first 10 languages list
> on Tiobe Index ?
>
> According to one of my friends views :
>
> The emergence of new languages like Clojure, Scala, Fan, indicate to
> this. All these new languages have concurrency support and are faster
> than Ruby. Python is improving constantly. Its perfomance has always
> been
> faster than Ruby, and it is very scalable, stable and widely used.
> Perl is coming back with its new avatar "Perl 6" armed with types.
> PHP may keep its present postion. Groovy slowly ascends the ladder.
>
> Inspite of all his comments, My favourite language is Ruby.
> I have been using ruby for the last 3 years. It has vastly helped me
> to make my daily office work easier. Hopefully 1.9.1 compatible issue
> with existing libraries will be solved within months.
>
> Exprert Rubyists, Please share your views on this matter to enliven
> my kind of average rubyists.
>
> Long Live Ruby !!

Jared Nance

4/11/2009 7:15:00 PM

0

Ruby is also gaining a (minor for now) foothold in some of the
scientific disciplines - at least physics. I know there are Ruby
bindings for the CERN ROOT libraries (which I personally use) that
make life just that much easier. If it wants to truly compete in the
academic setting, it will have to do benchmark battle with python -
and I am under the impression that 1.9 goes a long way towards doing
just that.

For those of us who like Ruby because of its paradigm and not because
of its performance, I think there will be a consistent market. And if
the language can improve on the latter, it can only improve the
situation.

In my opinion, one of the real threats is that MacRuby will do to Ruby
what Obj-C 2.0 did to Obj-C - which is to say shift the development
emphasis towards compatibility with the proprietary Cocoa libraries.
Don't get me wrong - I am writing this from a mac and I do like the
Apple platform, but I do most of my actual hard core crunching on
Linux machines.

Two cents.



On Apr 11, 2009, at 9:25 AM, Phlip wrote:

> Robert Dober wrote:
>
>> Forgive my ignorance, should language X be on the Tiobe Index? For
>> what reason? Never heard of that one before (duking, but that is the
>> truth).
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/...
>
> Java is number 1 due (in my exalted opinion) to corporate support, a
> huge critical mass of active projects using it, academic support,
> and "enterprise support". The latter is roughly equivalent to "we
> had to spend a quintillion dollars on it last quarter, so it must be
> powerful stuff!"
>
> C is number 2 due to almost complete saturation of the systems and
> OS programming layers. The next layer above machine language is C,
> so if you have silicon, you need C between it and your higher level
> systems.
>
> C++ is number 3 due to complete bidirectional integration with C,
> plus all the same reasons as Java, plus C-like (or better)
> performance.
>
> PhP is 4 because - until Rails - it was the default choice for RAD
> website development. Non-RAD website development is very rare...
>
> Visual Basic is 5 because MS markets it to your non-technical boss
> as "simpler than all those fragile languages that cause bugs." 'nuff
> said.
>
> JavaScript is on the list because it extends HTML to make your
> browser actually do stuff. It goes where HTML can't go.
>
> C# made the list because it's a Java clone, and hence a "duopoly" in
> the same Enterprise space.
>
> And the Duck Typing languages - Perl, Python, Ruby - are on the list
> due to the LAMP website architecture, where P stands for any
> interPreted language.
>
> Lua is on the list because it provides the scripting layer - and
> Duck Typing - for video games.
>

Marcelo

4/11/2009 7:30:00 PM

0

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 13:14, Charles Oliver Nutter
<charles.nutter@sun.com> wrote:

> To be honest, I think the most important thing Rubyists could do to help
> Ruby grow and become more relevant would be to more whole-heartedly suppo=
rt
> alternative implementations like JRuby, IronRuby, and MacRuby that target
> new domains of developers on other platforms.

That and providing a CPAN-like resource, too. And before someone
complains about this point, go look at CPAN and provide a
point-for-point comparison with whatever alternative you have in mind,
not to convince me that I'm in need of cluebat, but to educate those
who =E2=80=94 like me =E2=80=94 don't know the information that you obvious=
ly posses.
Hopefully you get the point I'm trying to make.

Marcelo

Robert Klemme

4/12/2009 3:46:00 PM

0

On 11.04.2009 21:14, Charles Oliver Nutter wrote:
> The truth is the C implementations of Ruby are only one part of our
> quest to conquer the world...there are a lot of developers out there on
> existing VMs and platforms that need to be brought into the fold. And
> they're not going to leave those platforms. The best way to bring them
> over is to embrace the Ruby implementations for those platforms, and do
> everything possible to make sure they're top-notch. The alternative is
> losing mindshare to languages like Groovy or Scala on the JVM or
> IronPython, F#, or C# on the CLR.

But why do you say those people "_need_ to be brought into the fold"?
Do we (or Ruby) really loose something if we do not insist on converting
the world over to Ruby?

> But this also raises another question: Does the Ruby community want to
> be all-inclusive? More and more I see Ruby groups splintering into the
> "regulars" and the "elites", and sometimes the elite groups splinter
> even further. Many of the Ruby old guard want to keep Ruby an exclusive
> club, and I think that elitism hurts the community.

I view this differently: to me it seems the Ruby community feels little
urge to evangelize (apart from Rails maybe) which I find very pleasant.
IMHO this is not the attempt to keep others out but rather an attitude
of letting everybody pick the tools that suit them best. If it is not
Ruby, then that's perfectly OK. I find this quite a laid back approach
and it is certainly one of the things that makes this community such a
nice place to be for me.

> I believe it's important for Ruby to continue growing and to draw in as
> many Java, .NET, and other platform developers as possible.

Why? Do you fear extinction of this wonderful programming language?
Ruby is here to stay. Even if development of the language would stop
right now (what I do not hope) it does not stop being useful to a lot of
people.

Kind regards

robert

Christopher Dicely

4/12/2009 4:43:00 PM

0

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Robert Klemme
<shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 11.04.2009 21:14, Charles Oliver Nutter wrote:
>>
>> The truth is the C implementations of Ruby are only one part of our quest
>> to conquer the world...there are a lot of developers out there on existing
>> VMs and platforms that need to be brought into the fold. And they're not
>> going to leave those platforms. The best way to bring them over is to
>> embrace the Ruby implementations for those platforms, and do everything
>> possible to make sure they're top-notch. The alternative is losing mindshare
>> to languages like Groovy or Scala on the JVM or IronPython, F#, or C# on the
>> CLR.
>
> But why do you say those people "_need_ to be brought into the fold"? Do we
> (or Ruby) really loose something if we do not insist on converting the world
> over to Ruby?

Unfortunately, yes. Broadly speaking, the less widely used a language
is, the less effort and investment is placed into maintaining and
advancing it. But diversity helps, too, as the best new ideas from
Ruby may well come from things that come from other languages which
encourage different ways of thinking about the same problems.

David Masover

4/12/2009 7:08:00 PM

0

On Saturday 11 April 2009 14:30:06 Marcelo wrote:
> That and providing a CPAN-like resource, too. And before someone
> complains about this point, go look at CPAN and provide a
> point-for-point comparison with whatever alternative you have in mind,

I haven't used CPAN enough to know quite what features you're expecting.

But since you're probably going to get this answer from pretty much everyon=
e=20
here, what does CPAN have that Rubygems lacks?

> not to convince me that I'm in need of cluebat, but to educate those
> who =E2=80=94 like me =E2=80=94 don't know the information that you obvio=
usly posses.

Oh. Well, try Rubygems. Nuff said.