Asp Forum - What is the Qur’ân?

al albani

2/25/2009 6:05:00 PM

I know that my article is not related to this group ,but it might be
useful. PLEASE read it.

The Qur’ân is the name given to Allah’s speech that He revealed to His
servant and Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him); speech that is
recited as an act of worship, is miraculous, and cannot be imitated by
man. It is the name of Allah’s Book, and no other book is called by
this name.

The connection between the Creator and his Creation is by way of His
Messengers, and these Messengers only know what Allah wants from them
by way of revelation, either directly or indirectly. The rational mind
cannot dismiss the possibility of revelation, since nothing is
difficult for the all-powerful Creator

revelation is a communication between two beings: one that speaks,
commands, and gives, and another who is addressed, commanded, and
receives. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) – as with every Prophet
– never confused himself with the One who gave the revelation to him.
As a human being, he felt his weakness before Allah, feared Allah’s
wrath if he should disobey, and hoped for Allah’s mercy.

Proves why it is impossible that Mohammad (Pbuh) wrote the Quran :
1. No matter how brilliant or insightful a person might be, there is
no way that he could discuss the happenings of nations lost to
antiquity, issues of belief and Divine Law, the rewards and
punishments of Heaven and Hell, and future events, all in such great
detail without any contradiction and with a most perfect style and
literary form. The Prophet (peace be upon him) had never once read a
book nor met with any historian
2. The Qur’ân makes to the disbelievers a stern challenge that they
will never be able to produce a chapter similar to it. Such a
challenge would never have come from the Messenger (peace be upon him)
3. The Qur’ân, in some places, sternly rebukes Muhammad (peace be upon
him) where he acted upon his own judgment in something and did not
decide on what is best. The Qur’ân clarified the truth and showed the
error of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
4. Many verses of the Qur’ân begin with the imperative verb “Say!” As
a matter of fact, this occurs more than three hundred times,
addressing Muhammad (peace be upon him) and directing him with respect
to what he should say. He, thus, did not follow his own desires; he
followed only what was revealed to him.
5. Complete harmony exists between what the Qur’ân says regarding the
physical world and what has been discovered by modern science. This
has been a source of amazement for a number of contemporary western
researchers

For more information about Islam
www.imanway1.com

18 Answers

snex

2/25/2009 6:06:00 PM

On Feb 25, 12:04 pm, al albani <imanway...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know that my article is not related to this group ,but it might be
> useful. PLEASE read it.
>
> The Qur’ân is the name given to Allah’s speech that He revealed to His
> servant and Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him); speech that is
> recited as an act of worship, is miraculous, and cannot be imitated by
> man. It is the name of Allah’s Book, and no other book is called by
> this name.
>
> The connection between the Creator and his Creation is by way of His
> Messengers, and these Messengers only know what Allah wants from them
> by way of revelation, either directly or indirectly. The rational mind
> cannot dismiss the possibility of revelation, since nothing is
> difficult for the all-powerful Creator
>
> revelation is a communication between two beings: one that speaks,
> commands, and gives, and another who is addressed, commanded, and
> receives. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) – as with every Prophet
> – never confused himself with the One who gave the revelation to him.
> As a human being, he felt his weakness before Allah, feared Allah’s
> wrath if he should disobey, and hoped for Allah’s mercy.
>
> Proves why it is impossible that Mohammad (Pbuh) wrote the Quran :
> 1. No matter how brilliant or insightful a person might be, there is
> no way that he could discuss the happenings of nations lost to
> antiquity, issues of belief and Divine Law, the rewards and
> punishments of Heaven and Hell, and future events, all in such great
> detail without any contradiction and with a most perfect style and
> literary form. The Prophet (peace be upon him) had never once read a
> book nor met with any historian
> 2. The Qur’ân makes to the disbelievers a stern challenge that they
> will never be able to produce a chapter similar to it. Such a
> challenge would never have come from the Messenger (peace be upon him)
> 3. The Qur’ân, in some places, sternly rebukes Muhammad (peace be upon
> him) where he acted upon his own judgment in something and did not
> decide on what is best. The Qur’ân clarified the truth and showed the
> error of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
> 4. Many verses of the Qur’ân begin with the imperative verb “Say!” As
> a matter of fact, this occurs more than three hundred times,
> addressing Muhammad (peace be upon him) and directing him with respect
> to what he should say. He, thus, did not follow his own desires; he
> followed only what was revealed to him.
> 5. Complete harmony exists between what the Qur’ân says regarding the
> physical world and what has been discovered by modern science. This
> has been a source of amazement for a number of contemporary western
> researchers
>
> For more information about Islamwww.imanway1.com

mohammad was a pedophile.

Tom Cloyd

2/25/2009 7:33:00 PM

snex wrote:
> On Feb 25, 12:04 pm, al albani <imanway...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I know that my article is not related to this group ,but it might be
>> useful. PLEASE read it.
>>
>> The Qur?ân is the name given to Allah?s speech that He revealed to His
>> servant and Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him); speech that is
>> recited as an act of worship, is miraculous, and cannot be imitated by
>> man. It is the name of Allah?s Book, and no other book is called by
>> this name.
>>
>> The connection between the Creator and his Creation is by way of His
>> Messengers, and these Messengers only know what Allah wants from them
>> by way of revelation, either directly or indirectly. The rational mind
>> cannot dismiss the possibility of revelation, since nothing is
>> difficult for the all-powerful Creator
>>
>> revelation is a communication between two beings: one that speaks,
>> commands, and gives, and another who is addressed, commanded, and
>> receives. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ? as with every Prophet
>> ? never confused himself with the One who gave the revelation to him.
>> As a human being, he felt his weakness before Allah, feared Allah?s
>> wrath if he should disobey, and hoped for Allah?s mercy.
>>
>> Proves why it is impossible that Mohammad (Pbuh) wrote the Quran :
>> 1. No matter how brilliant or insightful a person might be, there is
>> no way that he could discuss the happenings of nations lost to
>> antiquity, issues of belief and Divine Law, the rewards and
>> punishments of Heaven and Hell, and future events, all in such great
>> detail without any contradiction and with a most perfect style and
>> literary form. The Prophet (peace be upon him) had never once read a
>> book nor met with any historian
>> 2. The Qur?ân makes to the disbelievers a stern challenge that they
>> will never be able to produce a chapter similar to it. Such a
>> challenge would never have come from the Messenger (peace be upon him)
>> 3. The Qur?ân, in some places, sternly rebukes Muhammad (peace be upon
>> him) where he acted upon his own judgment in something and did not
>> decide on what is best. The Qur?ân clarified the truth and showed the
>> error of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
>> 4. Many verses of the Qur?ân begin with the imperative verb ?Say!? As
>> a matter of fact, this occurs more than three hundred times,
>> addressing Muhammad (peace be upon him) and directing him with respect
>> to what he should say. He, thus, did not follow his own desires; he
>> followed only what was revealed to him.
>> 5. Complete harmony exists between what the Qur?ân says regarding the
>> physical world and what has been discovered by modern science. This
>> has been a source of amazement for a number of contemporary western
>> researchers
>>
>> For more information about Islamwww.imanway1.com
>>
>
> mohammad was a pedophile.
>
>
>
Uh, dude, it's really bad form to make such allegations with
documentation of some sort. Plain irresponsible. I doubt that you have
any, but how are we to know? In fact, you may even be unfamiliar with
the concept, but that's another story.

FYI, a lot of this fairly straightforward Islamic stuff is coming out of
well funded effort in Turkey to get some reasonably accurate information
about Islam out into the world, to combat some of the racist,
xenophobic, colossally ignorant rant that pours out of certain centers
of ignorance in the US and elsewhere. I do NOT approve of this spamming
of this list, but let's try to keep our heads on and our facts straight.
And yes, Islam deserves a far better shake in the non-Islamic world than
it's gotten of late. For one thing, Islamic universities preserved Greek
wisdom during the dark ages, at a time when my ancestors (and quite
possibly yours) were living with and like pigs, in dark, cold places.
The Christian (?) Crusaders brought back Aristotle to Europe from these
Islamic centers of learning, to the amazement and perplexity of, among
others, the Catholic Church, which as usual was busy spinning tales
about how it invented sunshine.

Finally, I have no horse in this race. None at all, other than a
lifelong commitment to trying to educate myself and act intelligently
and compassionately when it really matters. Care to join me?

T.

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA, LMHC - Private practice Psychotherapist
Bellingham, Washington, U.S.A: (360) 920-1226
<< tc@tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
<< sleightmind.wordpress.com >> (mental health weblog)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

snex

2/25/2009 7:49:00 PM

On Feb 25, 1:32 pm, Tom Cloyd <tomcl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> snex wrote:
> > On Feb 25, 12:04 pm, al albani <imanway...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I know that my article is not related to this group ,but it might be
> >> useful. PLEASE read it.
>
> >> The Qur’ân is the name given to Allah’s speech that He revealed to His
> >> servant and Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him); speech that is
> >> recited as an act of worship, is miraculous, and cannot be imitated by
> >> man. It is the name of Allah’s Book, and no other book is called by
> >> this name.
>
> >> The connection between the Creator and his Creation is by way of His
> >> Messengers, and these Messengers only know what Allah wants from them
> >> by way of revelation, either directly or indirectly. The rational mind
> >> cannot dismiss the possibility of revelation, since nothing is
> >> difficult for the all-powerful Creator
>
> >> revelation is a communication between two beings: one that speaks,
> >> commands, and gives, and another who is addressed, commanded, and
> >> receives. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) – as with every Prophet
> >> – never confused himself with the One who gave the revelation to him.
> >> As a human being, he felt his weakness before Allah, feared Allah’s
> >> wrath if he should disobey, and hoped for Allah’s mercy.
>
> >> Proves why it is impossible that Mohammad (Pbuh) wrote the Quran :
> >> 1. No matter how brilliant or insightful a person might be, there is
> >> no way that he could discuss the happenings of nations lost to
> >> antiquity, issues of belief and Divine Law, the rewards and
> >> punishments of Heaven and Hell, and future events, all in such great
> >> detail without any contradiction and with a most perfect style and
> >> literary form. The Prophet (peace be upon him) had never once read a
> >> book nor met with any historian
> >> 2. The Qur’ân makes to the disbelievers a stern challenge that they
> >> will never be able to produce a chapter similar to it. Such a
> >> challenge would never have come from the Messenger (peace be upon him)
> >> 3. The Qur’ân, in some places, sternly rebukes Muhammad (peace be upon
> >> him) where he acted upon his own judgment in something and did not
> >> decide on what is best. The Qur’ân clarified the truth and showed the
> >> error of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
> >> 4. Many verses of the Qur’ân begin with the imperative verb “Say!” As
> >> a matter of fact, this occurs more than three hundred times,
> >> addressing Muhammad (peace be upon him) and directing him with respect
> >> to what he should say. He, thus, did not follow his own desires; he
> >> followed only what was revealed to him.
> >> 5. Complete harmony exists between what the Qur’ân says regarding the
> >> physical world and what has been discovered by modern science. This
> >> has been a source of amazement for a number of contemporary western
> >> researchers
>
> >> For more information about Islamwww.imanway1.com
>
> > mohammad was a pedophile.
>
> Uh, dude, it's really bad form to make such allegations with
> documentation of some sort. Plain irresponsible. I doubt that you have
> any, but how are we to know? In fact, you may even be unfamiliar with
> the concept, but that's another story.

their own holy books state it. he married aisha at the tender young
age of 6.

>
> FYI, a lot of this fairly straightforward Islamic stuff is coming out of
> well funded effort in Turkey to get some reasonably accurate information
> about Islam out into the world, to combat some of the racist,
> xenophobic, colossally ignorant rant that pours out of certain centers
> of ignorance in the US and elsewhere. I do NOT approve of this spamming
> of this list, but let's try to keep our heads on and our facts straight.
> And yes, Islam deserves a far better shake in the non-Islamic world than
> it's gotten of late. For one thing, Islamic universities preserved Greek
> wisdom during the dark ages, at a time when my ancestors (and quite
> possibly yours) were living with and like pigs, in dark, cold places.
> The Christian (?) Crusaders brought back Aristotle to Europe from these
> Islamic centers of learning, to the amazement and perplexity of, among
> others, the Catholic Church, which as usual was busy spinning tales
> about how it invented sunshine.

this crap spam is not a well meaning effort to dispel myths about
islam, it is intended to convert the world to their delusions.

>
> Finally, I have no horse in this race. None at all, other than a
> lifelong commitment to trying to educate myself and act intelligently
> and compassionately when it really matters. Care to join me?

attempting to engage in actual discussions with people who believe in
magical fairytales about men riding flying horses to mecca or being
born of virgins only gives them an air of legitimacy that they do not
deserve.

Phlip

2/25/2009 7:53:00 PM

> this crap spam is not a well meaning effort to dispel myths about
> islam, it is intended to convert the world to their delusions.

Then if the Quran is a powerless work of fiction, why do you fear it?

You sound like the OP - someone desperately trying to convince themselves...

snex

2/25/2009 8:01:00 PM

On Feb 25, 1:53 pm, Phlip <phlip2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > this crap spam is not a well meaning effort to dispel myths about
> > islam, it is intended to convert the world to their delusions.
>
> Then if the Quran is a powerless work of fiction, why do you fear it?
>
> You sound like the OP - someone desperately trying to convince themselves....

i fear it? LOL. show me any fear in my posts.

no, i dont fear some silly book written by a barbaric pedophile from
the desert. i simply dont like spam and will not put up with it.

Tom Cloyd

2/25/2009 8:13:00 PM

snex wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>>>> For more information about Islamwww.imanway1.com
>>>>
>>> mohammad was a pedophile.
>>>
>> Uh, dude, it's really bad form to make such allegations with
>> documentation of some sort. Plain irresponsible. I doubt that you have
>> any, but how are we to know? In fact, you may even be unfamiliar with
>> the concept, but that's another story.
>>
>
> their own holy books state it. he married aisha at the tender young
> age of 6.
>
>
>> FYI, a lot of this fairly straightforward Islamic stuff is coming out of
>> well funded effort in Turkey to get some reasonably accurate information
>> about Islam out into the world, to combat some of the racist,
>> xenophobic, colossally ignorant rant that pours out of certain centers
>> of ignorance in the US and elsewhere. I do NOT approve of this spamming
>> of this list, but let's try to keep our heads on and our facts straight.
>> And yes, Islam deserves a far better shake in the non-Islamic world than
>> it's gotten of late. For one thing, Islamic universities preserved Greek
>> wisdom during the dark ages, at a time when my ancestors (and quite
>> possibly yours) were living with and like pigs, in dark, cold places.
>> The Christian (?) Crusaders brought back Aristotle to Europe from these
>> Islamic centers of learning, to the amazement and perplexity of, among
>> others, the Catholic Church, which as usual was busy spinning tales
>> about how it invented sunshine.
>>
>
> this crap spam is not a well meaning effort to dispel myths about
> islam, it is intended to convert the world to their delusions.
>
Again, you're behaving rudely. It's not crap. I get a lot of Christian
evangelical stuff at my door that's much more outrageous. This is just
coming from an earnest believer. Not my style, or yours, but also not
crap. If you want to be respected for your position, you would do well
to respect others more.

Not a well-meaning effort? Why not? It's not precisely objective, I
think, but what do you know of the writer's motivation? To me, it reads
as well meaning. The writer intends no harm to his readers. I cannot say
quite the same about you - you sound pretty hostile. Reminds of certain
religious fanatics I've had contact with.

As for the conversion business, I don't see that at all. The writer is
not talking about you and me, but about the Qur?ân and the Prophet, as
he is referred to. How is that an attempt to convert? I think this piece
is an attempt to correct some mis-perceptions. Out of place thought it
is, it still is not at all as you have characterized it. The first
principle of good scholarship is to get the text right. In this, I think
you have failed outright.
>
>> Finally, I have no horse in this race. None at all, other than a
>> lifelong commitment to trying to educate myself and act intelligently
>> and compassionately when it really matters. Care to join me?
>>
>
> attempting to engage in actual discussions with people who believe in
> magical fairytales about men riding flying horses to mecca or being
> born of virgins only gives them an air of legitimacy that they do not
> deserve.
>
>
You believe in flying horses and virgin births? Really? You're the only
one I'm talking with. I have not written a word to the author of the
original email. Again, you are not well attending to what's going on.
I'd say that your prejudices are not serving you well, but that's just
my opinion.

As for me, I don't hew to any organized religion. Don't need to. I
program in Ruby, and I'm rather sure that Matz walks on water. Must be a
Japanese thing - you know, surrounded by all that water... A gene pool
adaptation of some sort, rarely seen. Don't worry - just a speculation,
not a new "faith-based initiative" (Gaaack!).

t.

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA, LMHC - Private practice Psychotherapist
Bellingham, Washington, U.S.A: (360) 920-1226
<< tc@tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
<< sleightmind.wordpress.com >> (mental health weblog)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tom Cloyd

2/25/2009 8:19:00 PM

snex wrote:
> On Feb 25, 1:53 pm, Phlip <phlip2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> this crap spam is not a well meaning effort to dispel myths about
>>> islam, it is intended to convert the world to their delusions.
>>>
>> Then if the Quran is a powerless work of fiction, why do you fear it?
>>
>> You sound like the OP - someone desperately trying to convince themselves...
>>
>
> i fear it? LOL. show me any fear in my posts.
>
> no, i dont fear some silly book written by a barbaric pedophile from
> the desert. i simply dont like spam and will not put up with it.
>
>
>
Then attack the spamming, not the religion. Islam is a major world
religion, with some very high moral ideals. If my own culture weren't so
colossally ignorant of other people and their cultures and religions, it
- and possibly you - would already know this. Again, get your damned
facts straight.

As for Mohamed's purported marriage to a 6 year old, do you not know
that "marriage" means many things in many cultures, and that betrothal
of children in marriage is a rather common cultural trait, AND that the
custom in virtually all cases of which I know (I have a Masters in
Cultural Anthropology) is that child is reared by its family until puberty?

No slack, buddy. The more you write, the more you screw up. Time to go
study up a bit. You could use it.

t.

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA, LMHC - Private practice Psychotherapist
Bellingham, Washington, U.S.A: (360) 920-1226
<< tc@tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
<< sleightmind.wordpress.com >> (mental health weblog)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

snex

2/25/2009 8:22:00 PM

On Feb 25, 2:13 pm, Tom Cloyd <tomcl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> snex wrote:
> > [snip]
>
> >> FYI, a lot of this fairly straightforward Islamic stuff is coming out of
> >> well funded effort in Turkey to get some reasonably accurate information
> >> about Islam out into the world, to combat some of the racist,
> >> xenophobic, colossally ignorant rant that pours out of certain centers
> >> of ignorance in the US and elsewhere. I do NOT approve of this spamming
> >> of this list, but let's try to keep our heads on and our facts straight.
> >> And yes, Islam deserves a far better shake in the non-Islamic world than
> >> it's gotten of late. For one thing, Islamic universities preserved Greek
> >> wisdom during the dark ages, at a time when my ancestors (and quite
> >> possibly yours) were living with and like pigs, in dark, cold places.
> >> The Christian (?) Crusaders brought back Aristotle to Europe from these
> >> Islamic centers of learning, to the amazement and perplexity of, among
> >> others, the Catholic Church, which as usual was busy spinning tales
> >> about how it invented sunshine.
>
> > this crap spam is not a well meaning effort to dispel myths about
> > islam, it is intended to convert the world to their delusions.
>
> Again, you're behaving rudely. It's not crap. I get a lot of Christian
> evangelical stuff at my door that's much more outrageous. This is just
> coming from an earnest believer. Not my style, or yours, but also not
> crap. If you want to be respected for your position, you would do well
> to respect others more.
>
> Not a well-meaning effort? Why not? It's not precisely objective, I
> think, but what do you know of the writer's motivation? To me, it reads
> as well meaning. The writer intends no harm to his readers. I cannot say
> quite the same about you - you sound pretty hostile. Reminds of certain
> religious fanatics I've had contact with.

the fact that this shit is spam-posted to several completely unrelated
groups tells me all i need to know. its spam. it should be treated
like spam. its author should be discouraged from further disseminating
it to people who did not request it.

snex

2/25/2009 8:27:00 PM

On Feb 25, 2:19 pm, Tom Cloyd <tomcl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> snex wrote:
> > On Feb 25, 1:53 pm, Phlip <phlip2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> this crap spam is not a well meaning effort to dispel myths about
> >>> islam, it is intended to convert the world to their delusions.
>
> >> Then if the Quran is a powerless work of fiction, why do you fear it?
>
> >> You sound like the OP - someone desperately trying to convince themselves...
>
> > i fear it? LOL. show me any fear in my posts.
>
> > no, i dont fear some silly book written by a barbaric pedophile from
> > the desert. i simply dont like spam and will not put up with it.
>
> Then attack the spamming, not the religion. Islam is a major world
> religion, with some very high moral ideals. If my own culture weren't so
> colossally ignorant of other people and their cultures and religions, it
> - and possibly you - would already know this. Again, get your damned
> facts straight.

you should read the quran sometime. you might change your opinion of
its "high moral ideals." of course, you could also see how moral most
muslims are by just turning on the news sometime. they scream for the
deaths of cartoonists, they commit honor killings, and they hijack
airplanes and fly them into skyscrapers.

>
> As for Mohamed's purported marriage to a 6 year old, do you not know
> that "marriage" means many things in many cultures, and that betrothal
> of children in marriage is a rather common cultural trait, AND that the
> custom in virtually all cases of which I know (I have a Masters in
> Cultural Anthropology) is that child is reared by its family until puberty?

why dont you tell us what "marriage" meant back then in that culture
then? by the way, it is also stated that the marriage was consummated
when she was 9.

but youll just pretend that means something else too, wont ya?

and dont forget, this is all coming from a guy who claims to hold the
objective morality given to him by god himself. citing cultural
differences as excuses for his moral failings only further weakens
their position.

>
> No slack, buddy. The more you write, the more you screw up. Time to go
> study up a bit. You could use it.

then quit responding to me. you are only giving the spam more
prominence.

David Masover

2/25/2009 9:21:00 PM

snex wrote:
> attempting to engage in actual discussions with people who believe in
> magical fairytales about men riding flying horses to mecca or being
> born of virgins only gives them an air of legitimacy that they do not
> deserve.

Unfortunately, they already have that air of legitimacy.

Which means that responding the way you did does not help your cause. It
means that moderately religious people, rather than considering your
argument seriously, will write you off as an asshole and not seriously
consider anything you have to say.

And not everyone is raised atheist. Otherwise-rational people are still
going to find it hard to give up their childhood faith.

If your purpose is merely to keep spam off the list, you've done the
equivalent of respond to one of the "unsubscribe" messages spammed to
the whole list. If you don't like it, mark it as spam and don't read it
-- I have. But engaging in a debate with them, civil or not, is
encouraging this offtopic thread, and is bringing more attention to
their cause than they deserve.

comp.lang.ruby

What is the Qur’ân?

al albani

snex

Tom Cloyd

snex

Phlip

snex

Tom Cloyd

Tom Cloyd

snex

snex

David Masover

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