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baa ob baa

megiacomonadeau

11/12/2008 12:45:00 AM

9 Answers

john0714@aol.com

10/22/2011 11:42:00 PM

0

On Oct 22, 2:36 pm, "Nick P" <nicholasped...@npedley.freeserve.co.uk>
wrote:
> "Rich Rostrom" <rrostrom.21stcent...@rcn.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2abb763b-cca6-442c-aeea-ccec951913c2@er6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 12:18 pm, David Tenner <dten...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >> Suppose Stalin ignores the "international disapproval"...
> >> directs the invading force to capture Kabul, and
> >> restores Amanullah.)  Is Britain willing to
> >> send troops to Kabul to oust Amanullah again?
>
> > It seems a distinct possibility. The Soviets would
> > have explicitly violated the tacit agreement that
> > Afghanistan would be neutral between Russia and
> > Britain. And Soviet imperialism would be even more
> > alarming than Russian imperialism.
>
> >>  If not, are the Soviets stuck
> >> in the same trap as in the 1980's, bogged down in Afghanistan trying to
> >> prop
> >> up an unpopular regime (since Amanullah will be widely viewed among
> >> Afghans
> >> as a puppet of the godless Bolsheviks)?
>
> > That could be amusing. Britain would almost certainly
> > encourage Afghan resistance; the British political
> > office in India might enjoy sponsoring a rebellion
> > instead of fighting one.
>
> I can just imagine the movie (sequel), Lawrence of Afghanistan!
> Airman Lawrence was based in India between 1926 and 1928 and was still
> serving in the RAF until 1935. Not entirely impossible that he gets given
> the task of returning to the sub-continent and fostering the Aghan
> uprising...
>
> Nick P- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've often thought what Lawrence would have done had he lived at least
until the end of WWll (however he might have butterflied that), but
yours is good. Would he have learned that part of the world as much as
he had previously learned Arabia to make much of a difference, seeing
as how he moved about at the sufference of the RAF?

William Black

10/23/2011 12:12:00 AM

0

On 23/10/11 00:42, john0714 wrote:
> On Oct 22, 2:36 pm, "Nick P"<nicholasped...@npedley.freeserve.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> "Rich Rostrom"<rrostrom.21stcent...@rcn.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:2abb763b-cca6-442c-aeea-ccec951913c2@er6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 20, 12:18 pm, David Tenner<dten...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> Suppose Stalin ignores the "international disapproval"...
>>>> directs the invading force to capture Kabul, and
>>>> restores Amanullah.) Is Britain willing to
>>>> send troops to Kabul to oust Amanullah again?
>>
>>> It seems a distinct possibility. The Soviets would
>>> have explicitly violated the tacit agreement that
>>> Afghanistan would be neutral between Russia and
>>> Britain. And Soviet imperialism would be even more
>>> alarming than Russian imperialism.
>>
>>>> If not, are the Soviets stuck
>>>> in the same trap as in the 1980's, bogged down in Afghanistan trying to
>>>> prop
>>>> up an unpopular regime (since Amanullah will be widely viewed among
>>>> Afghans
>>>> as a puppet of the godless Bolsheviks)?
>>
>>> That could be amusing. Britain would almost certainly
>>> encourage Afghan resistance; the British political
>>> office in India might enjoy sponsoring a rebellion
>>> instead of fighting one.
>>
>> I can just imagine the movie (sequel), Lawrence of Afghanistan!
>> Airman Lawrence was based in India between 1926 and 1928 and was still
>> serving in the RAF until 1935. Not entirely impossible that he gets given
>> the task of returning to the sub-continent and fostering the Aghan
>> uprising...
>>
>> Nick P- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I've often thought what Lawrence would have done had he lived at least
> until the end of WWll (however he might have butterflied that), but
> yours is good. Would he have learned that part of the world as much as
> he had previously learned Arabia to make much of a difference, seeing
> as how he moved about at the sufference of the RAF?

Modern research seems to indicate that Lawrence didn't actually make
that much difference, he just wrote about it really well.

The main fighting force was a battalion of Gurkha, two British armoured
car columns and a small Royal Naval force working its down the Red Sea
in support.

The Arab forces, almost all mercenaries, seem to have mainly ripped up
the railways, looted the odd train and then gone home to stash their loot.

Lawrence spent most of his time keeping the friendly Arab despots 'on
message' and pretending to them that the Sykes Picot agreement and the
Balfour Declaration didn't mean what they actually said.

All three deals plus a fourth secret deal with the Turks that nobody
knew about at the time, gave Palestine to four different parties.

Lawrence was just another instrument of the highly duplicitous British
foreign policy of the time.

Besides, Lawrence was an Arabic speaker who was also an archaeologist,
he wasn't an Urdu or Pashtun speaker and neither did he have
experience of mountains.

The British had plenty of people who did.

--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...

Rich Rostrom

10/23/2011 1:49:00 AM

0


William Black wrote:
> On 23/10/11 00:42, john0714 wrote:
:

> Modern research seems to indicate that Lawrence didn't actually make
> that much difference, he just wrote about it really well.

It wasn't him, it was Lowell Thomas, who
created "Lawrence of Arabia". Lawrence
did write his memoir, which was a hit, but
without Thomas it's not likely anyone would
have heard of him.

Ingo Siekmann

10/23/2011 11:06:00 AM

0

Rich Rostrom schrieb:
-snip

> That could be amusing. Britain would almost certainly
> encourage Afghan resistance; the British political
> office in India might enjoy sponsoring a rebellion
> instead of fighting one.

And if this keeps on long enough, the Nazis can show up und support the
"proud mountain warriors" against the evil bolshewists. Or the Japanese
Empire claiming to support the "sovereign rights of the Asian peoples".
Both would build up a good reputation with the Indian Liberation
Movements...

Sounds interesting. How can we make this whole mess more complicated?

Bye
Ingo

William Black

10/23/2011 12:46:00 PM

0

On 23/10/11 02:48, Rich Rostrom wrote:
>
> William Black wrote:
>> On 23/10/11 00:42, john0714 wrote:
> :
>
>> Modern research seems to indicate that Lawrence didn't actually make
>> that much difference, he just wrote about it really well.
>
> It wasn't him, it was Lowell Thomas, who
> created "Lawrence of Arabia". Lawrence
> did write his memoir, which was a hit, but
> without Thomas it's not likely anyone would
> have heard of him.

I imagine if he hadn't been turned into a romantic figure his memoirs
would be up there with the rest of the' WWI biographies of men in in
exotic units, available only as a PDF from Gutenberg....

I know of two others, 'With the Cameliers in Palestine' by a New
Zealander who fought in what has become known as 'The Arab Revolt'
wrote one and Patterson, the commander of the Jewish Legion, wrote
'With the Judeans in Palestine'.

Newcombe, who actually led the British military assistance group, never
wrote a book.



--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...

William Black

10/23/2011 12:50:00 PM

0

On 23/10/11 12:06, Ingo Siekmann wrote:
> Rich Rostrom schrieb:
> -snip
>
>> That could be amusing. Britain would almost certainly
>> encourage Afghan resistance; the British political
>> office in India might enjoy sponsoring a rebellion
>> instead of fighting one.
>
> And if this keeps on long enough, the Nazis can show up und support the
> "proud mountain warriors" against the evil bolshewists. Or the Japanese
> Empire claiming to support the "sovereign rights of the Asian peoples".
> Both would build up a good reputation with the Indian Liberation
> Movements...

The Indian liberation movements, at least the ones committed to the
violent overthrow of the Raj, never showed the slightest desire to shy
away from Britain's enemies.

Fortunately for the British the vast majority of the Indian leadership
decided that fighting the British was futile.

Gandhi wrote "We shall never defeat the British by force of arms" and
the brighter Indians seem to have taken that to heart.


--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...

Dennis

10/24/2011 4:12:00 AM

0

William Black wrote:

> On 23/10/11 02:48, Rich Rostrom wrote:
>>
>> William Black wrote:
>>> On 23/10/11 00:42, john0714 wrote:
>> :
>>
>>> Modern research seems to indicate that Lawrence didn't actually make
>>> that much difference, he just wrote about it really well.
>>
>> It wasn't him, it was Lowell Thomas, who
>> created "Lawrence of Arabia". Lawrence
>> did write his memoir, which was a hit, but
>> without Thomas it's not likely anyone would
>> have heard of him.
>
> I imagine if he hadn't been turned into a romantic figure his memoirs
> would be up there with the rest of the' WWI biographies of men in in
> exotic units, available only as a PDF from Gutenberg....
>
> I know of two others, 'With the Cameliers in Palestine' by a New
> Zealander who fought in what has become known as 'The Arab Revolt'
> wrote one and Patterson, the commander of the Jewish Legion, wrote
> 'With the Judeans in Palestine'.
>
> Newcombe, who actually led the British military assistance group, never
> wrote a book.

The author of 'The Peace to End All Peace' discusses an Arab who played a
role quite similar to Lawrence's.

Dennis

Tim

10/24/2011 6:26:00 AM

0

On Oct 24, 1:49 am, William Black <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23/10/11 12:06, Ingo Siekmann wrote:
>
> > Rich Rostrom schrieb:
> > -snip
>
> >> That could be amusing. Britain would almost certainly
> >> encourage Afghan resistance; the British political
> >> office in India might enjoy sponsoring a rebellion
> >> instead of fighting one.
>
> > And if this keeps on long enough, the Nazis can show up und support the
> > "proud mountain warriors" against the evil bolshewists. Or the Japanese
> > Empire claiming to support the "sovereign rights of the Asian peoples".
> > Both would build up a good reputation with the Indian Liberation
> > Movements...
>
> The Indian liberation movements, at least the ones committed to the
> violent overthrow of the Raj,  never showed the slightest desire to shy
> away from Britain's enemies.
>
> Fortunately for the British the vast majority of the Indian leadership
> decided that fighting the British was futile.
>
> Gandhi wrote "We shall never defeat the British by force of arms" and
> the brighter Indians seem to have taken that to heart.
>
> --
> William Black
>
> Free men have open minds
> If you want loyalty,  buy a dog...

Hmmm - try 'the brighter Europeans' , or the `brighter whites' - some
sort of casual racism there?

William Black

10/24/2011 11:55:00 AM

0

On 24/10/11 07:25, Tim wrote:
> On Oct 24, 1:49 am, William Black<blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 23/10/11 12:06, Ingo Siekmann wrote:
>>
>>> Rich Rostrom schrieb:
>>> -snip
>>
>>>> That could be amusing. Britain would almost certainly
>>>> encourage Afghan resistance; the British political
>>>> office in India might enjoy sponsoring a rebellion
>>>> instead of fighting one.
>>
>>> And if this keeps on long enough, the Nazis can show up und support the
>>> "proud mountain warriors" against the evil bolshewists. Or the Japanese
>>> Empire claiming to support the "sovereign rights of the Asian peoples".
>>> Both would build up a good reputation with the Indian Liberation
>>> Movements...
>>
>> The Indian liberation movements, at least the ones committed to the
>> violent overthrow of the Raj, never showed the slightest desire to shy
>> away from Britain's enemies.
>>
>> Fortunately for the British the vast majority of the Indian leadership
>> decided that fighting the British was futile.
>>
>> Gandhi wrote "We shall never defeat the British by force of arms" and
>> the brighter Indians seem to have taken that to heart.

>
> Hmmm - try 'the brighter Europeans' , or the `brighter whites' - some
> sort of casual racism there?

Don't be silly.

By 1936 the brighter British had realised that they were finished in
India , the less intelligent ones, such as Churchill, didn't.

--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...