Asp Forum - jquery and hoi polloi - comp.lang.javascript

Andrew Poulos

12/2/2014 9:30:00 PM

For years the many of the experts here have clearly explained why
libraries like jquery are "rubbish". The FAQ even states that no library
is endorsed by the group. Their arguments have been persuasive.

I've attended a number of interviews recently and everyone has
specifically asked about my level of ability with jquery (which
currently is next to zero).

So the moral of the story is, if the hoi polloi have adopted it you
still need to learn things that experts have deemed crap.

Andrew Poulos

19 Answers

colonialacres

9/15/2008 3:49:00 PM

"Michael Schey" <mscheynjSPAMBLOCK@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0rtsc4l5gqr8rqh8mt0o0gnpucfn3hj50l@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:53:44 -0700 (PDT), "stuthalblum@comcast.net"
> <stuthalblum@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sep 15, 9:11 am, Michael Schey <mscheynjSPAMBL...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Getting back in the groove after vacation and loads of stuff that keep
>>> me distracted, like work and life.
>>>
>>> 1. Phish - 12/31/96 - Fleet Center, Boston. Excellent FM recording
>>> of this electrifying New Years Eve show. Great versions of alot of
>>> good songs, with my favorites (so far) being Chalk Dusk Torture and
>>> Peaches En Regalia.
>>>
>>> 2. Bruce Springsteen - Passaic Night, Disc 1. No words can describe
>>> this...
>>>
>>> 3. The Bridges - Limits Of The Sky - Excellent CD. Matthew Sweet
>>> produced it, so that says something about where he thinks this group
>>> is going. Excellent pop melodies and singing. Not the greatest
>>> debut but still worth the buy.
>>>
>>> That's it............
>>> Michael
>>> (http://michaelschey.blo...)
>>
>>I'm listening to what I listed last week because my car broke down and
>>was towed to the station and I just got it back.
>>
>>Last week in the rental car, I played:
>>
>>THE RISING
>>ANIMALS - Boy, Pink Floyd made three great albums, didn't they?
>>DSOTM, WYWH, and this.
>
> Agreed. Not a bad song on either three.
> The Wall was ok, though a bit pretentious. Forget the rest.
> Michael
> (http://michaelschey.blo...)

Forget the rest? LOL, my mileage varies.
While the "big 3" are more accessible to the masses, the others are quite
good, although they may require a bit more of an investment from the
listener. Meddle is a near masterpiece. Obsured By Clouds is an underrated
gem, full of nothing but good songs. Atom Heart Mother has it's moments,
more good stuff than bad; same with Ummagumma. And The Wall is masterful and
ambitious at worst.

Michael Schey

9/15/2008 3:57:00 PM

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:48:45 -0700, "colonialacres"
<colonialacres@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>"Michael Schey" <mscheynjSPAMBLOCK@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:0rtsc4l5gqr8rqh8mt0o0gnpucfn3hj50l@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:53:44 -0700 (PDT), "stuthalblum@comcast.net"
>> <stuthalblum@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sep 15, 9:11 am, Michael Schey <mscheynjSPAMBL...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Getting back in the groove after vacation and loads of stuff that keep
>>>> me distracted, like work and life.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Phish - 12/31/96 - Fleet Center, Boston. Excellent FM recording
>>>> of this electrifying New Years Eve show. Great versions of alot of
>>>> good songs, with my favorites (so far) being Chalk Dusk Torture and
>>>> Peaches En Regalia.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Bruce Springsteen - Passaic Night, Disc 1. No words can describe
>>>> this...
>>>>
>>>> 3. The Bridges - Limits Of The Sky - Excellent CD. Matthew Sweet
>>>> produced it, so that says something about where he thinks this group
>>>> is going. Excellent pop melodies and singing. Not the greatest
>>>> debut but still worth the buy.
>>>>
>>>> That's it............
>>>> Michael
>>>> (http://michaelschey.blo...)
>>>
>>>I'm listening to what I listed last week because my car broke down and
>>>was towed to the station and I just got it back.
>>>
>>>Last week in the rental car, I played:
>>>
>>>THE RISING
>>>ANIMALS - Boy, Pink Floyd made three great albums, didn't they?
>>>DSOTM, WYWH, and this.
>>
>> Agreed. Not a bad song on either three.
>> The Wall was ok, though a bit pretentious. Forget the rest.
>> Michael
>> (http://michaelschey.blo...)
>
>Forget the rest? LOL, my mileage varies.
>While the "big 3" are more accessible to the masses, the others are quite
>good, although they may require a bit more of an investment from the
>listener. Meddle is a near masterpiece. Obsured By Clouds is an underrated
>gem, full of nothing but good songs. Atom Heart Mother has it's moments,
>more good stuff than bad; same with Ummagumma. And The Wall is masterful and
>ambitious at worst.
>

I happen to like Meddle as well.......been a long time since I
listened to it though, and I don't think I even own a copy anymore.
As for AHM and Umma........I used to own those years ago but while
doing a culling of the collection put them into the 'will probably
never listen to thse again' pile and either gave them away or sold
them to an exchange.

Michael
(http://michaelschey.blo...)

Zeke

9/15/2008 4:32:00 PM

"colonialacres" <colonialacres@comcast.net> wrote:
> Meddle is a near masterpiece

My favorite Pink Floyd album, by far.

===============================
Because the world as it is won't do.
Michelle Obama

stuthalblum@comcast.net

9/15/2008 6:13:00 PM

On Sep 15, 10:56 am, Michael Schey <mscheynjSPAMBL...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:53:44 -0700 (PDT), "stuthalb...@comcast.net"
>
>
>
>
>
> <stuthalb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >On Sep 15, 9:11 am, Michael Schey <mscheynjSPAMBL...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Getting back in the groove after vacation and loads of stuff that keep
> >> me distracted, like work and life.
>
> >> 1. Phish - 12/31/96 - Fleet Center, Boston. Excellent FM recording
> >> of this electrifying New Years Eve show. Great versions of alot of
> >> good songs, with my favorites (so far) being Chalk Dusk Torture and
> >> Peaches En Regalia.
>
> >> 2. Bruce Springsteen - Passaic Night, Disc 1. No words can describe
> >> this...
>
> >> 3. The Bridges - Limits Of The Sky - Excellent CD. Matthew Sweet
> >> produced it, so that says something about where he thinks this group
> >> is going. Excellent pop melodies and singing. Not the greatest
> >> debut but still worth the buy.
>
> >> That's it............
> >> Michael
> >> (http://michaelschey.blo...)
>
> >I'm listening to what I listed last week because my car broke down and
> >was towed to the station and I just got it back.
>
> >Last week in the rental car, I played:
>
> >THE RISING
> >ANIMALS - Boy, Pink Floyd made three great albums, didn't they?
> >DSOTM, WYWH, and this.
>
> Agreed. Not a bad song on either three.
> The Wall was ok, though a bit pretentious. Forget the rest.
> Michael
> (http://michaelschey.blo...)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Never liked The Wall, from the day it was released.

Ridiculous and misanthropic, depressing, overblown and pretentious.
And not in a good way.

Musically, a double-length rerun of music played better on ANIMALS.

Nicest thing I can say about it is that the late Rick Wright had
almost nothing to do with it. In fact, he was the only one who made
money from extra-brief and unprofitable "tour," since Waters had
already fired him and he was paid a stright salary for the shows.

Christoph M. Becker

12/2/2014 10:34:00 PM

Andrew Poulos wrote:

> For years the many of the experts here have clearly explained why
> libraries like jquery are "rubbish". The FAQ even states that no library
> is endorsed by the group. Their arguments have been persuasive.
>
> I've attended a number of interviews recently and everyone has
> specifically asked about my level of ability with jquery (which
> currently is next to zero).
>
> So the moral of the story is, if the hoi polloi have adopted it you
> still need to learn things that experts have deemed crap.

Even though I am no expert in browser side scripting, I like to add a
comment nonetheless.

IMHO the biggest problem with libraries such as jQuery is that they
obscure what's going on behind the scenes -- even up to the point where
beginners think that jQuery and "Javascript" are competitors when it
comes to browser scripting. Therefore I strongly suggest that beginners
should avoid such libraries, and learn ECMAScript and the browser APIs
(DOM etc.) first. When they have reached a good understanding of these,
they are able to decide if and when to use a (certain) library (if they
have the freedom), and are able to make the best use of the library.

Furthermore it seems sensible to point out that different libraries
shouldn't be lumped together -- it seems to me there are big differences
between them, and some libraries might have been able to improve over time.

--
Christoph M. Becker

danca

12/2/2014 11:14:00 PM

Il 02/12/2014 22:30, Andrew Poulos ha scritto:
> For years the many of the experts here have clearly explained why
> libraries like jquery are "rubbish". The FAQ even states that no library
> is endorsed by the group. Their arguments have been persuasive.
>
> I've attended a number of interviews recently and everyone has
> specifically asked about my level of ability with jquery (which
> currently is next to zero).
>
> So the moral of the story is, if the hoi polloi have adopted it you
> still need to learn things that experts have deemed crap.
>
> Andrew Poulos

"some" experts in "this" newsgroup, and specifically from a technical
(not always) point of view.
Windows was crap and probably still is a bit crappy. Who cares?

My 2 cents.
Dan

Erwin Moller

12/3/2014 1:48:00 PM

On 12/2/2014 10:30 PM, Andrew Poulos wrote:
> For years the many of the experts here have clearly explained why
> libraries like jquery are "rubbish". The FAQ even states that no library
> is endorsed by the group. Their arguments have been persuasive.
>
> I've attended a number of interviews recently and everyone has
> specifically asked about my level of ability with jquery (which
> currently is next to zero).
>
> So the moral of the story is, if the hoi polloi have adopted it you
> still need to learn things that experts have deemed crap.
>
> Andrew Poulos

Yes, the masses have adopted to JQuery.
Now they demand you use it.

My take on it:
I kept my (professional) distance to JQuery after reading comments in
here, many years ago.
Especially the reviews by David Mark were convincing to me.

In those days I wasn't good enough to judge the quality of JQuery
myself, but I got a bad impression of the framework online, caused by a
lot of fanboys, with their fanboy-behaviour.
What I read then, seldom showed any understanding of DOM, and they were
often confused. That, combined with their fanboy-behaviour online, was a
clear sign (for me) to be on guard when it comes to JQuery.

On the bright side, you CAN make a buck out of JQuery, and still stay
sane, if you want.
I believe above mentioned David Mark hires himself often as a consultant
that de-crapifies websites that were done with JQuery, and then ran into
all kinds of technical problems when things get more complex.
The only solution is calling in the cavalry. ;-)

One last thought: You *can* explain in a jobinterview why you avoid
JQuery, and have some real-world examples at hand.
Some (good) interviewers will be interested then in what you have to
say. (Worked for me on occasion)

Regards,
Erwin Moller

--
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without
evidence."
-- Christopher Hitchens

Gregor Kofler

12/3/2014 3:45:00 PM

Am 2014-12-02 um 22:30 schrieb Andrew Poulos:
> For years the many of the experts here have clearly explained why
> libraries like jquery are "rubbish". The FAQ even states that no library
> is endorsed by the group. Their arguments have been persuasive.
>
> I've attended a number of interviews recently and everyone has
> specifically asked about my level of ability with jquery (which
> currently is next to zero).

At this point you can safely claim that you are a jQuery "expert", since
it can be assumed that the interviewers are clueless anyway and were
just namedropping.

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

12/4/2014 9:07:00 PM

Gregor Kofler wrote:

> Am 2014-12-02 um 22:30 schrieb Andrew Poulos:
>> For years the many of the experts here have clearly explained why
>> libraries like jquery are "rubbish". The FAQ even states that no library
>> is endorsed by the group. Their arguments have been persuasive.
>>
>> I've attended a number of interviews recently and everyone has
>> specifically asked about my level of ability with jquery (which
>> currently is next to zero).
>
> At this point you can safely claim that you are a jQuery "expert", since
> it can be assumed that the interviewers are clueless anyway and were
> just namedropping.

I can tell from personal experience that this is a fallacy.

--
PointedEars
FAQ: <http://PointedEars.... | SVN: <http://PointedEars.de...
Twitter: @PointedEars2 | ES Matrix: <http://PointedEars.de/es-...
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

Michael Haufe (\"TNO\")

12/5/2014 5:46:00 AM

On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 4:33:52 PM UTC-6, Christoph M. Becker wrote:
> IMHO the biggest problem with libraries such as jQuery is that they
> obscure what's going on behind the scenes -- even up to the point where
> beginners think that jQuery and "Javascript" are competitors when it
> comes to browser scripting.

If my memory serves me correctly, I think it was even advertised this way.

More than once I've considered it a shame that the jquery didn't splinter off with its community back in 2007 when Resig was playing with a "compiler":

<http://ejohn.org/apps/jq...

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jquery and hoi polloi