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comp.lang.ruby

Rubyâ??s not ready - an indepth essay

Song Ma

4/8/2008 2:54:00 AM

[Note: parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

F.Y.I

Not sure if you guys have read this article, I am going to re-post it here.

http://glyphobet.net/blog...
79 Answers

Avdi Grimm

4/8/2008 3:09:00 AM

0

2008/4/7 Song Ma <songmash@gmail.com>:
> http://glyphobet.net/blog...

The piece can be summarized in two brief quotations:

First, near the beginning:

I promise we'll be as objective as humanly possible

then, about 500 pages later:

TMTOWDI is bad

In other words, I'll be objective, so long as objective means judging
things according to my own lack of imagination.


--
Avdi

Jeremy McAnally

4/8/2008 3:17:00 AM

0

Well he seems to hold everything to the standard of Python, so of
course anything that follows the TMTOWDI approach rather than Ivory
Tower Driven Development (ITDD) is going to be bad.

--Jeremy

2008/4/7 Avdi Grimm <avdi@avdi.org>:
> 2008/4/7 Song Ma <songmash@gmail.com>:
>
> > http://glyphobet.net/blog...
>
> The piece can be summarized in two brief quotations:
>
> First, near the beginning:
>
> I promise we'll be as objective as humanly possible
>
> then, about 500 pages later:
>
> TMTOWDI is bad
>
> In other words, I'll be objective, so long as objective means judging
> things according to my own lack of imagination.
>
>
> --
> Avdi
>
>



--
http://jeremymca...
http:...

Read my books:
Ruby in Practice (http://manning.com...)
My free Ruby e-book (http://humblelittlerub...)

Or, my blogs:
http://mrneig...
http://rubyinpr...

Phillip Gawlowski

4/8/2008 3:17:00 AM

0

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Song Ma wrote:
| F.Y.I
|
| Not sure if you guys have read this article, I am going to re-post it
here.
|
| http://glyphobet.net/blog...
|

"It's not ready, because it isn't Python". That sums the article up in a
sentence.

I could say the same in reverse about Python, or any other language.

Two major fallacies:
1) The issues the article touches on are already known, and partially
addressed in libraries (Regexen with Oniguruma (sp?)) and/or different
implementations (speed in JRuby, for example, where you could farm out
to Java's Strings or regexen).

2) (And this breaks the whole premise of the article:) The basis for the
comparison is humbug. Porting libraries and applications isn't a valid
test of languages, since the original implementation shapes preconceptions.

If Ruby and particularly Rails weren't ready, it wouldn't see adoption
by major players.

- --
Phillip Gawlowski
Twitter: twitter.com/cynicalryan

Rule of Open-Source Programming #4:

If you don't work on your project, chances are that no one will.
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Song Ma

4/8/2008 3:22:00 AM

0

[Note: parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

Interesting. But what I am thinking about is not the attitude of the author,
but the points he was trying to make. The deep review and discussion will
benefit the language insights.

2008/4/8, Avdi Grimm <avdi@avdi.org>:
>
> 2008/4/7 Song Ma <songmash@gmail.com>:
>
> > http://glyphobet.net/blog...
>
>
> The piece can be summarized in two brief quotations:
>
> First, near the beginning:
>
> I promise we'll be as objective as humanly possible
>
> then, about 500 pages later:
>
> TMTOWDI is bad
>
> In other words, I'll be objective, so long as objective means judging
> things according to my own lack of imagination.
>
>
> --
>
> Avdi
>
>

Justin Collins

4/8/2008 3:29:00 AM

0

Song Ma wrote:
> F.Y.I
>
> Not sure if you guys have read this article, I am going to re-post it here.
>
> http://glyphobet.net/blog...
>
>
Warning: only read if you feel like being really irritated to gain maybe
a tiny bit of insight, probably on things you already know. At least,
that's my opinion on this article.

-Justin

Julian Leviston

4/8/2008 3:46:00 AM

0

Damn!

Our whole coding business has been built on a language and framework
that's just not ready yet?? <sigh>

LOL!

<tongue out of cheek>

That's just silly. I don't understand why he'd write something like
that, but honestly it doesn't really matter.

If he wants to not use Rails and Ruby, then so be it. I use it, and
I've used it for years, we've done numerous apps (over 10), some of
our them Enterprise-level, and it works a treat.

I looked at Python, but writing it is a pain in the neck. It just
sucks (for me).

This is my preference.

Julian.

Learn Ruby on Rails! Check out the FREE VIDS (for a limited time)
VIDEO #3 out NOW!
http://sensei.ze...


On 08/04/2008, at 12:53 PM, Song Ma wrote:

> F.Y.I
>
> Not sure if you guys have read this article, I am going to re-post
> it here.
>
> http://glyphobet.net/blog...

Phillip Gawlowski

4/8/2008 3:46:00 AM

0

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Song Ma wrote:
| Interesting. But what I am thinking about is not the attitude of the
author,
| but the points he was trying to make. The deep review and discussion will
| benefit the language insights.

Two years ago, it might have. But not anymore.

And it is not about attitude. It's credibility. And the first two
paragraphs of the article blew *that*.

- --
Phillip Gawlowski
Twitter: twitter.com/cynicalryan

Never buy what you do not want
because it is cheap; it will be dear to you.
~ -- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
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Julian Leviston

4/8/2008 3:55:00 AM

0

The points he was trying to make are incredibly biased.

Ruby works like people do. That's why I like it. That's why it's
faster to program in.

If people aren't open to programming in a more natural way, Ruby will
just "get in the way". So, it's not for them.

All of the "downsides" are worth this. It's pragmatic.

Julian.

Learn Ruby on Rails! Check out the FREE VIDS (for a limited time)
VIDEO #3 out NOW!
http://sensei.ze...


On 08/04/2008, at 1:21 PM, Song Ma wrote:

> Interesting. But what I am thinking about is not the attitude of the
> author,
> but the points he was trying to make. The deep review and discussion
> will
> benefit the language insights.
>
> 2008/4/8, Avdi Grimm <avdi@avdi.org>:
>>
>> 2008/4/7 Song Ma <songmash@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> http://glyphobet.net/blog...
>>
>>
>> The piece can be summarized in two brief quotations:
>>
>> First, near the beginning:
>>
>> I promise we'll be as objective as humanly possible
>>
>> then, about 500 pages later:
>>
>> TMTOWDI is bad
>>
>> In other words, I'll be objective, so long as objective means judging
>> things according to my own lack of imagination.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Avdi
>>
>>

Austin Ziegler

4/8/2008 4:00:00 AM

0

2008/4/7 Song Ma <songmash@gmail.com>:
> Interesting. But what I am thinking about is not the attitude of the author,
> but the points he was trying to make. The deep review and discussion will
> benefit the language insights.

There's no deep review here. It's a shallow review written in a
shallow way. The author is completely and wholly incorrect that:

"The options for Ruby 1.8 users are to install 1.9 or the third-party
Oniguruma package... In general, it's a bad sign when a third-party
reimplements a large chunk of functionality in an existing piece
of software."

This represents pure ignorance. Yes, Ruby 1.8 users must install
Oniguruma for the features that Oniguruma provides. But it's not a
"third-party" product as such; it *is* the Ruby 1.9 regexp engine.
This fact has been known and stated for at least three years, and
Oniguruma is made available as an option for people who need the
additional features. (Free clue: not many. Those who do need it really
need it. Most people don't.)

The author is similarly wholly ignorant of Ruby 1.9 and Ruby 2.0
discussions and assumes that "lack of English documentation" is the
same as "lack of documentation." The author is a fool for believing
the claim that Ruby 2 has been in development longer than Perl 6. Perl
6 was ramping up as I switched to Ruby in 2002 and Ruby 1.8 was
released a bit after that (I got my Ruby 1.8 Pickaxe at the 2005
RubyConf in San Diego). Matz has been talking about the next
generation of Ruby (Ruby 2.0) for a while, but that's no different
than the discussions and experiments surrounding Py3k.

Worst of all, the author treats both the Alioth shootout and the Zed
Shaw rant as things worthy of positive attention, when both are, well,
worthless. The Alioth shootout has been known to be worthless for
years yet periodically some idiot treats it as serious. Zed's rant was
a *rant*. It too had things that are known to be false, things that
are probably libellous, and things that were simply taken out of
context.

All in all, the authors pretend to be objective when they are anything
but. They've drunk the Guido-ade and as the resulting article shows
had no interest in showing Ruby in a positive light. Most of the
things that they've mentioned are *differences* from Python (neither
positive nor negative) or have little importance to most applications.
(Yes, Virginia. Most people don't need full-on Unicode munging in
their code. It's necessary when you do need it, but most people don't
need it.)

This article deserves to be buried with great prejudice.

-austin
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * http://www.halo...
* austin@halostatue.ca * http://www.halo...feed/
* austin@zieglers.ca

Phillip Gawlowski

4/8/2008 4:06:00 AM

0

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Austin Ziegler wrote:

| (Yes, Virginia. Most people don't need full-on Unicode munging in
| their code. It's necessary when you do need it, but most people don't
| need it.)

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Un...

I need it. Most of Europe needs it. Not to mention Arabia, Japan, and
everybody else not speaking English.

- --
Phillip Gawlowski
Twitter: twitter.com/cynicalryan

~ "Endorsing products is the American way of expressing individuality."
- -Calvin
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