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TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer

Ilias Lazaridis

2/16/2008 12:16:00 PM

Essence:

* Trac is deficient, cause of "proud to be an egoism driven amateur"
developers
* Python and it's communities is excellent for learning. Not
programming, but to "learn from deficiency", community organization,
transparency, efficiency etc.!
* Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby,
if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.


-

I don't think that's a secret anymore. Anyone should know that the
trac team has huge problems to bring trac forward. People who have
looked at the code-base and project understand some reason: difficult
to maintain 'spaghetti-code' in many places, disorganized project,
missing separations of concerns etc.! I've provided an overview some
time ago

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki...

At this time the developers are searching like crazy to find a mem-
leak... since months.

http://trac.edgewall.org/t...

But the main problem with the trac team is the processing within
project resources. Believe it or not, developers can act within this
project as they like, 'trimming' ticket comments in a way that a
ticket gets a totally other meaning.

The main specialist for this is Mr. Noah Kantrowitz. He calls it
"sanitizing". The team hides behind him, cowardly, without any public
vote.

How did everything start?

I post a simple message to trac-users (note: the user resource, NOT
the developer resource), in order to extend my custom version of trac
0.11 a little. The message did not appear, as my email is under
moderation. I do not switch to another email, as I write always with
the same identity.

So i file a ticket within the ticket system (here you can see the
"After a quick vote, it has been decided to sanitize this ticket. "...
I start to like this "sanitize" term, sounds really interesting)

http://trac.edgewall.org/t...

Mr. Noah Kantrowitz deleted the discussion, but I've saved it here,
thus you can see that the developers of trac have no idea about their
own processes:

http://case.lazaridis.com...

After the developers placed the usual irrelevant comments (remember: I
just asked them to stop blocking my messages to trac users), they
"brute force closed" the ticket.

I've opened a new one, directly adressed to the project lead, in order
to complain about the developers which violate the project processes,
and to ask for a formal vote:

http://trac.edgewall.org/t...

Right! Mr. Noah Kantrowitz plays again "wild west". I relly don't know
who of those two is more funny: the one who plays the dictator, or the
other joker who suggests to revers the process (I should find
developers to veto against the censorship and send the to the team).

Remember: we are talking about the trac-user group.

I really cannot believe that a whole team can be in such way confused,
nuts, blind, egoism-driven etc.! Possibly they have lost the password
to the trac-user group, and are not able to manage it - who knows. I
would not wonder, seeing thos terrible processes and the rejection to
improve them.

(btw: If you like to act against censorship, please post this message
to trac-users, thus the get informed about the teams processing)

And we are talking about censorship of a trac 0.11dev custom-version-
developer. A custom version with localization support, plugin-bundles
(product-plugin) which run out of the svn, an fully functional but
simple side-navigation, and... everything deactivatable with a very
simple way, thus the original trac is there again.

http://dev.lazaridi...

Open Source works like this: many many small human ego's need to be
fitted. There's no place for developers which could redesign the whole
thing within a few months. the trac-developers need to 'fight' with
tons of spaghetti. The developers plan like crazy, instead to merge
with a application framework like e.g. turbogears. Did you know that
trac has no support for... datetime fields? Yes, its true.

You may say: do it yourself. Of course I could do it, even without
touching the main sources (using dyna-patches or monkeypatches). But
that's not how open-source works. You implement thing for yourself and
contribute things back to the core-project - but with trac there's one
problem: no one get's the core anymore (apparently the initial
developer has left)

Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've
prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
on...

perl and it's libraries.

Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting
with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
syntax-thing of python again.

Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if
you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.

Python and it's communities is excellent for learning. Not
programming, but to "learn from deficiency", community organization,
transparency, efficiency etc.!

-

So, keep your eyes on this project, if you want to be prepared to jump-
off the sinking ship "trac"

http://dev.lazaridi.../



-

Party Time!

.
26 Answers

Robert Klemme

2/16/2008 1:46:00 PM

0

On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

<snip/>

Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.

http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg...
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index...

Cheers

robert

Ben Bleything

2/16/2008 1:52:00 PM

0

On Sat, Feb 16, 2008, Robert Klemme wrote:
> Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.

Just like you didn't?

Oh wait.

Jeff Schwab

2/16/2008 5:14:00 PM

0

Robert Klemme wrote:
> On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
> <snip/>
>
> Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.
>
> http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg...
> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index...

Thank you. I didn't recognize his name at first.

Jeff Schwab

2/16/2008 5:15:00 PM

0

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Essence:

<snip>Spam spam spam spam...</snip>

I just looked at your resume. What is Abstract Project Management?

George Sakkis

2/16/2008 5:26:00 PM

0

On Feb 16, 12:15 pm, Jeff Schwab <j...@schwabcenter.com> wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> > Essence:
>
> <snip>Spam spam spam spam...</snip>
>
> I just looked at your resume. What is Abstract Project Management?

A branch of Analysis Paralysis Vaporware.

Tad J McClellan

2/16/2008 9:15:00 PM

0


["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]


Jeff Schwab <jeff@schwabcenter.com> wrote:
> Robert Klemme wrote:
>> On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
>> <snip/>
>>
>> Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.
>>
>> http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg...
>> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index...
>
> Thank you. I didn't recognize his name at first.


I had the post already pegged as bait simply by counting
the number of commas in the Newsgroups header. :-)


--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"

Ilias Lazaridis

2/17/2008 1:14:00 AM

0

On 16 Feß, 15:45, Robert Klemme <shortcut...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
> <snip/>
>
> Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.
>
> http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg...

Thanks, nice message, I've added it to the section:

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/CoreLiveEval#WhatP...

> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index...

It's really funny how easily people fall into the
"encyclopediadramatica-trap"... really funny.

"
While the articles themselves are mostly satirical jabs at Internet
users (both individually and in groups) and phenomena, bear in mind
that the Encyclopedia Dramatica itself is a parody of a much less
funny online encyclopedia. As such, ED articles tend to make fun of
the supposed objectivity and accuracy, elitism, and stupid edit wars
of such sites. In other words, expect blatant, biased lies, and expect
boring truths to get deleted quickly."
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Encyclopedia_Drama...

> Cheers
>
> robert

Ilias Lazaridis

2/17/2008 1:26:00 AM

0

On 16 Feß, 19:15, Jeff Schwab <j...@schwabcenter.com> wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> > Essence:
>
> <snip>Spam spam spam spam...</snip>
>
> I just looked at your resume.

http://lazaridis.com/resumes/laza...

(need to update it, lot's of irrelevant stuff, should focus on my
failures)

> What is Abstract Project Management?

I've mentioned "abstract _product_ management"

Don't know exactly, I've never tried to articulate the meaning which
I've internally.

You could extract the meaning from "Abstract Base Class" or
"Abstractness" in general.

Something like "universal product management".

Or managing a product without having many specific information about
it.

Something like this _possibly_:

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/K...

Marc Heiler

2/17/2008 3:44:00 AM

0

Wow... I dont like python much as a language. I respect it though
because it did away with the ugly line noise of perl. (But ruby did a
lot better).

However, there is one huge reason why trac became so popular - there is
a DEMAND for these applications.

The very same happened with Mantis. It didnt have much in the beginning,
but it was (and is) constantly growing.

At one point it hardly matters how messy something is, as long as people
drive it forward - take phpbb3 for example.

I'd wish ruby would jump in but this all takes a little bit of effort
after effort, and there is no point at all in writing so much about a
project YOU dislike. I couldnt even stop writing what I dislike ... like
all the various perl scripts bundled in countless software apps - they
should be ruby scripts instead. :)

But as long as people all agree that the www has become incredibly
important, i am fine. Because the drive-on seems to steered in the right
direction.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-....

Marcin Raczkowski

2/17/2008 11:57:00 AM

0

Marc Heiler wrote:
> Wow... I dont like python much as a language. I respect it though
> because it did away with the ugly line noise of perl. (But ruby did a
> lot better).
>
> However, there is one huge reason why trac became so popular - there is
> a DEMAND for these applications.
>
> The very same happened with Mantis. It didnt have much in the beginning,
> but it was (and is) constantly growing.
>
> At one point it hardly matters how messy something is, as long as people
> drive it forward - take phpbb3 for example.
>
> I'd wish ruby would jump in but this all takes a little bit of effort
> after effort, and there is no point at all in writing so much about a
> project YOU dislike. I couldnt even stop writing what I dislike ... like
> all the various perl scripts bundled in countless software apps - they
> should be ruby scripts instead. :)
>
> But as long as people all agree that the www has become incredibly
> important, i am fine. Because the drive-on seems to steered in the right
> direction.
well you can always use redmine :P