Asp Forum - Paul Graham's "Hackers and Painters"

gengyangcai

7/3/2015 4:12:00 PM

In Paul Graham's book "Hackers and Painters, on page 169, he mentioned that :

Eric Raymond has written an essay called "How to Become a Hacker," and in it, among other things, he tells would-be hackers what languages they should learn. He suggests starting with Python and Java , because they are easy to learn. The serious hacker will also want to learn C, in order to hack Unix, and Perl for system administration and CGI scripts. Finally the truly serious hacker should consider learning Lisp:

Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp itself a lot.

Discuss ...

7 Answers

Alan Bawden

7/3/2015 5:54:00 PM

Cai Gengyang <gengyangcai@gmail.com> writes:

> In Paul Graham's book "Hackers and Painters, on page 169, he mentioned that :
>
> Eric Raymond has written an essay called "How to Become a Hacker," and
> in it, among other things, he tells would-be hackers what languages
> they should learn. He suggests starting with Python and Java , because
> they are easy to learn. The serious hacker will also want to learn C,
> in order to hack Unix, and Perl for system administration and CGI
> scripts. Finally the truly serious hacker should consider learning
> Lisp:
>
> Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you
> will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a
> better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never
> actually use Lisp itself a lot.
>
> Discuss ...

And you should learn Haskell. When you get it, you will experience
another wave of enlightenment, and become an even better programmer.
(But you'll still want to do your real work in Lisp!)

--
Alan Bawden

Kaz Kylheku

7/3/2015 6:31:00 PM

On 2015-07-03, Cai Gengyang <gengyangcai@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will
> have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better
> programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp
> itself a lot.

There is no "finally get it". There are many things to "get", little by little
and it keeps going. If you "never actually use Lisp a lot", you will only have
a minor, enlightenment experience or two, possibly short lived, or in any case,
increasingly hazy and distorted as its memory recedes into the past.

You might even become an evangelist, but one that is easily knocked out
in early rounds and ultimately harfmul to the cause.

Whatever it is that you think you "finally get" is probably just the tip
of some iceberg.

Lisp demands constant, life-long immersion in practice. I would argue that if
Lisp hasn't either sucked you into this, or else turned you away from computing
entirely, then you properly "get" anything.

gengyangcai

7/3/2015 6:43:00 PM

On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 1:53:49 AM UTC+8, Alan Bawden wrote:
> Cai Gengyang <gengyangcai@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > In Paul Graham's book "Hackers and Painters, on page 169, he mentioned that :
> >
> > Eric Raymond has written an essay called "How to Become a Hacker," and
> > in it, among other things, he tells would-be hackers what languages
> > they should learn. He suggests starting with Python and Java , because
> > they are easy to learn. The serious hacker will also want to learn C,
> > in order to hack Unix, and Perl for system administration and CGI
> > scripts. Finally the truly serious hacker should consider learning
> > Lisp:
> >
> > Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you
> > will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a
> > better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never
> > actually use Lisp itself a lot.
> >
> > Discuss ...
>
> And you should learn Haskell. When you get it, you will experience
> another wave of enlightenment, and become an even better programmer.
> (But you'll still want to do your real work in Lisp!)
>
> --
> Alan Bawden

Alan Bawden, I just recently downloaded Lisp version 6.1.1 recently and am learning to use it, copying code examples from the internet and running them using Lisp. Its kinda hard for me because I have almost zero programming experience and live in Singapore where there are very very few Lisp hackers (if any), but decided to learn Lisp after reading Paul Graham's material. I have to say that I love the way Lisp looks --- the interface is very beautifully designed and the syntax looks weird but very elegant, though I am still a long long way to go before everything "clicks" in my head and I gain enlightenment. I remember Paul Graham mentioning that the best way is to dive headfirst into

gengyangcai

7/3/2015 7:58:00 PM

On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 2:31:25 AM UTC+8, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2015-07-03, Cai Gengyang <gengyangcai@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will
> > have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better
> > programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp
> > itself a lot.
>
> There is no "finally get it". There are many things to "get", little by little
> and it keeps going. If you "never actually use Lisp a lot", you will only have
> a minor, enlightenment experience or two, possibly short lived, or in any case,
> increasingly hazy and distorted as its memory recedes into the past.
>
> You might even become an evangelist, but one that is easily knocked out
> in early rounds and ultimately harfmul to the cause.
>
> Whatever it is that you think you "finally get" is probably just the tip
> of some iceberg.
>
> Lisp demands constant, life-long immersion in practice. I would argue that if
> Lisp hasn't either sucked you into this, or else turned you away from computing
> entirely, then you properly "get" anything.

Kaz Kylheku , Yes I agree with you that Lisp is a language that demands constant, life-long immersion in practice. Paul Graham himself says that Lisp is like Latin --- it is a superior language but rarely used in real life commercial applications. I guess my question now is what do I do next, how do i start using Lisp to create software that users would love and pay for ? I have been trying to generate startup ideas in my head ... but I just can't think of any at the moment even after reading Paul Graham's material and Hackernews ... perhaps I am tired or just unimaginative. The best I could think of was to create a stock market trading automated robot that I could sell to retail investors. But any suggestions would be appreciated. God Bless

gengyangcai

7/3/2015 8:06:00 PM

On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 2:31:25 AM UTC+8, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2015-07-03, Cai Gengyang <gengyangcai@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will
> > have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better
> > programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp
> > itself a lot.
>
> There is no "finally get it". There are many things to "get", little by little
> and it keeps going. If you "never actually use Lisp a lot", you will only have
> a minor, enlightenment experience or two, possibly short lived, or in any case,
> increasingly hazy and distorted as its memory recedes into the past.
>
> You might even become an evangelist, but one that is easily knocked out
> in early rounds and ultimately harfmul to the cause.
>
> Whatever it is that you think you "finally get" is probably just the tip
> of some iceberg.
>
> Lisp demands constant, life-long immersion in practice. I would argue that if
> Lisp hasn't either sucked you into this, or else turned you away from computing
> entirely, then you properly "get" anything.

Kaz Kylheku , Yes I agree with you that Lisp is a language that demands constant, life-long immersion in practice. Paul Graham himself says that Lisp is like Latin --- it is a superior language but rarely used in real life commercial applications. I guess my question now is what do I do next, how do i start using Lisp to create software that users would love and pay for ? I must be tired, unimaginative , stupid or lazy but I just can't seem to generate any credible software startup ideas at the moment in my brain. My goal is to build and grow a very successful Lisp startup so that I can become an evangelist for Lisp hackers. Any suggestions would be appreciated. God Bless .

gengyangcai

7/3/2015 8:10:00 PM

On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 1:53:49 AM UTC+8, Alan Bawden wrote:
> Cai Gengyang <gengyangcai@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > In Paul Graham's book "Hackers and Painters, on page 169, he mentioned that :
> >
> > Eric Raymond has written an essay called "How to Become a Hacker," and
> > in it, among other things, he tells would-be hackers what languages
> > they should learn. He suggests starting with Python and Java , because
> > they are easy to learn. The serious hacker will also want to learn C,
> > in order to hack Unix, and Perl for system administration and CGI
> > scripts. Finally the truly serious hacker should consider learning
> > Lisp:
> >
> > Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you
> > will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a
> > better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never
> > actually use Lisp itself a lot.
> >
> > Discuss ...
>
> And you should learn Haskell. When you get it, you will experience
> another wave of enlightenment, and become an even better programmer.
> (But you'll still want to do your real work in Lisp!)
>
> --
> Alan Bawden

Alan Bawden, do me a favor and give me some startup ideas. My goal is to build and grow a very successful Lisp startup to prove that it can be done. God Bless

Bigos

7/15/2015 11:21:00 PM

On 03/07/15 18:53, Alan Bawden wrote:

> And you should learn Haskell. When you get it, you will experience
> another wave of enlightenment, and become an even better programmer.
> (But you'll still want to do your real work in Lisp!)
>
amen

comp.lang.lisp

Paul Graham's "Hackers and Painters"

gengyangcai

Alan Bawden

Kaz Kylheku

gengyangcai

gengyangcai

gengyangcai

gengyangcai

Bigos

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