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comp.lang.ruby

Ruby needs continuations...

Randy R

11/28/2007 12:30:00 PM

Warning: I don't really know what I'm talking about so if I make any
mistakes in terminology, please try to correct me...


I've been doing a lot of Python programming and I've discovered that
it's actually a very powerful language. The language, itself, lacks any
kind of elegance but it has all the power of Ruby and a little more
performance. It also has a richer set of libraries, although not in all
areas, surprisingly.
One thing that Ruby should take from Python are continuations. Python
is moving away from list creation and version 3.0 functions will return
Python iterators, implemented with continuations, instead of actual lists,
since they are not used nearly as much as you might think.
The reason why I say that Ruby needs continuations is because they are
more versatile than Ruby iterators. The reason why I say _that_ is because
you can make Ruby iterators with continuations but you can't make
continuations with Ruby iterators. This means that you can implement a
continuation iterator and Object class can automatically define a Ruby
iterator based on your continuation iterator. After all, Ruby iterators are
nice. I'm surprised by how annoyed I am that Python for loops don't return
a value...
One weakness of Ruby iterators that continuations don't have is parallel
iteration. If you have two containers that represent different aspects of
the same things, it's difficult to iterate over both of them in Ruby. In
Python, you can do this:


list1 = [1, 2, 3, 4]
list2 = ['a', 'b', 'c', 'd']

# Okay, Python is more wordy than I'd like
# I could have just used zip() but you rarely need the list!
for num, letter in itertools.izip(list1, list2):
# Do something with both numbers and letters
print num, letter
print


How would one do this in Ruby? You can use .each_with_index and index
the other list but that assumes that the other list is indexable, which only
happens to be true of arrays but is not true in general. I've thought about
implementing some Ruby equivalent of zip() (or preferably izip()) and
discovered that I can't do so without continuations.
...Hence, my post. I'm actually at odds with Pythonic philosophy. The
idea that there should only be one way to do things is ludicrous and a
constant up hill battle. One thing that Python does right is that it's not
afraid to "steal" from other languages and that's the right attitude to
have. Adopt whatever is useful!
Python 3.0 looks like great language. I'm hoping that Ruby 2.0 will be
even better 'cause, frankly, Ruby is more fun to program in...
Thank you...



25 Answers

Vitor Peres

11/28/2007 12:47:00 PM

0

Note: parts of this message were removed by the gateway to make it a legal Usenet post.

On Nov 28, 2007 10:30 AM, Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality <
ihatespam@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> How would one do this in Ruby? You can use .each_with_index and index
> the other list but that assumes that the other list is indexable, which
> only
> happens to be true of arrays but is not true in general. I've thought
> about
> implementing some Ruby equivalent of zip() (or preferably izip()) and
> discovered that I can't do so without continuations.
>

I can't comment much on the rest of your post, considering I lack knowledge
both on the Python camp and the Ruby camp to make any meaningful
consideration.

Ruby does, however, have an implementation of zip in Enumerable. You can do

list1 = [1, 2, 3, 4]
list2 = ['a', 'b', 'c', 'd']

list1.zip(list2).each {|num, letter| puts "#{num} #{letter}" }

just fine. You'll actually get the same result you would with your Python
example.

Best regards,

Vitor

Michael Fellinger

11/28/2007 12:53:00 PM

0

[1,2,3].zip([4,5,6]).each{|a,b| p a => b}

also, ruby does have contiuations, check your facts (ri callcc) before
trying to complain, otherwise you will just appear as yet another
troll.

^ manveru

On 11/28/07, Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
<ihatespam@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Warning: I don't really know what I'm talking about so if I make any
> mistakes in terminology, please try to correct me...
>
>
> I've been doing a lot of Python programming and I've discovered that
> it's actually a very powerful language. The language, itself, lacks any
> kind of elegance but it has all the power of Ruby and a little more
> performance. It also has a richer set of libraries, although not in all
> areas, surprisingly.
> One thing that Ruby should take from Python are continuations. Python
> is moving away from list creation and version 3.0 functions will return
> Python iterators, implemented with continuations, instead of actual lists,
> since they are not used nearly as much as you might think.
> The reason why I say that Ruby needs continuations is because they are
> more versatile than Ruby iterators. The reason why I say _that_ is because
> you can make Ruby iterators with continuations but you can't make
> continuations with Ruby iterators. This means that you can implement a
> continuation iterator and Object class can automatically define a Ruby
> iterator based on your continuation iterator. After all, Ruby iterators are
> nice. I'm surprised by how annoyed I am that Python for loops don't return
> a value...
> One weakness of Ruby iterators that continuations don't have is parallel
> iteration. If you have two containers that represent different aspects of
> the same things, it's difficult to iterate over both of them in Ruby. In
> Python, you can do this:
>
>
> list1 = [1, 2, 3, 4]
> list2 = ['a', 'b', 'c', 'd']
>
> # Okay, Python is more wordy than I'd like
> # I could have just used zip() but you rarely need the list!
> for num, letter in itertools.izip(list1, list2):
> # Do something with both numbers and letters
> print num, letter
> print
>
>
> How would one do this in Ruby? You can use .each_with_index and index
> the other list but that assumes that the other list is indexable, which only
> happens to be true of arrays but is not true in general. I've thought about
> implementing some Ruby equivalent of zip() (or preferably izip()) and
> discovered that I can't do so without continuations.
> ...Hence, my post. I'm actually at odds with Pythonic philosophy. The
> idea that there should only be one way to do things is ludicrous and a
> constant up hill battle. One thing that Python does right is that it's not
> afraid to "steal" from other languages and that's the right attitude to
> have. Adopt whatever is useful!
> Python 3.0 looks like great language. I'm hoping that Ruby 2.0 will be
> even better 'cause, frankly, Ruby is more fun to program in...
> Thank you...
>
>
>
>
>

Austin Ziegler

11/28/2007 1:01:00 PM

0

On 11/28/07, Vitor Peres <dodecaphonic@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 28, 2007 10:30 AM, Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality <
> ihatespam@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > How would one do this in Ruby? You can use .each_with_index and index
> > the other list but that assumes that the other list is indexable, which
> > only happens to be true of arrays but is not true in general. I've thought
> > about implementing some Ruby equivalent of zip() (or preferably izip()) and
> > discovered that I can't do so without continuations.

Actually, Ruby 1.9 is losing continuations (hard to do with native
threads, expensive for stack frame manipulation in JRuby). However,
you don't need continuations to do parallel iteration, as Vitor
suggests:

> Ruby does, however, have an implementation of zip in Enumerable. You can do
>
> list1 = [1, 2, 3, 4]
> list2 = ['a', 'b', 'c', 'd']
>
> list1.zip(list2).each {|num, letter| puts "#{num} #{letter}" }
>
> just fine. You'll actually get the same result you would with your Python
> example.

You're also able to do:

a.zip(b, c, d, ...)

to iterate multiple lists in parallel.

-austin
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * http://www.halo...
* austin@halostatue.ca * http://www.halo...feed/
* austin@zieglers.ca

Richard Conroy

11/28/2007 1:14:00 PM

0

On Nov 28, 2007 12:30 PM, Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
<ihatespam@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Warning: I don't really know what I'm talking about so if I make any
> mistakes in terminology, please try to correct me...
>
>
> I've been doing a lot of Python programming and I've discovered that
> it's actually a very powerful language. The language, itself, lacks any
> kind of elegance but it has all the power of Ruby and a little more
> performance. It also has a richer set of libraries, although not in all
> areas, surprisingly.
> One thing that Ruby should take from Python are continuations.

Ruby has continuations. Though in practice they are not used much.
They have caused serious pain in implementing JRuby for instance,
to the point that IIRC JRuby does not support them out of the box (and
this doesn't diminish JRuby's value really).

But there are a lot of really smart people looking into Ruby right now.
Don't expect the dormant Lisp-like features to stay unused.

Python 'lacks any kind of elegance'? Thats unfair. It is more correct to
say, that Python has a different value system for code expressiveness.

Python and Ruby are more or less peers on the Language Power Continuum.
Choice between either will depend more on specific task details, specific
library availability or personal preference.

Randy R

11/28/2007 1:32:00 PM

0


"Austin Ziegler" <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9e7db9110711280500j3d7b1c6byf36c6d769c05bcbd@mail.gmail.com...
> On 11/28/07, Vitor Peres <dodecaphonic@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 28, 2007 10:30 AM, Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality <
>> ihatespam@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > How would one do this in Ruby? You can use .each_with_index and
>> > index
>> > the other list but that assumes that the other list is indexable, which
>> > only happens to be true of arrays but is not true in general. I've
>> > thought
>> > about implementing some Ruby equivalent of zip() (or preferably izip())
>> > and
>> > discovered that I can't do so without continuations.
>
> Actually, Ruby 1.9 is losing continuations (hard to do with native
> threads, expensive for stack frame manipulation in JRuby). However,
> you don't need continuations to do parallel iteration, as Vitor
> suggests:
>
>> Ruby does, however, have an implementation of zip in Enumerable. You can
>> do
>>
>> list1 = [1, 2, 3, 4]
>> list2 = ['a', 'b', 'c', 'd']
>>
>> list1.zip(list2).each {|num, letter| puts "#{num} #{letter}" }
>>
>> just fine. You'll actually get the same result you would with your Python
>> example.
>
> You're also able to do:
>
> a.zip(b, c, d, ...)
>
> to iterate multiple lists in parallel.

Thank you, both, for pointing this out!
Considering my failure to create such a method, I was about to ask how
such a thing was implemented but then I just tried it out and I've
discovered how: arrays. I've already mentioned that not all containers are
indexable: linked lists are not and trees are not efficiently.
Continuations allow even non-indexable containers to be iterated in
parallel...




Randy R

11/28/2007 1:36:00 PM

0


"Michael Fellinger" <m.fellinger@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9c00d3e00711280453l26abd03h9f5b8791ae699ef1@mail.gmail.com...
> [1,2,3].zip([4,5,6]).each{|a,b| p a => b}
>
> also, ruby does have contiuations, check your facts (ri callcc) before
> trying to complain, otherwise you will just appear as yet another
> troll.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't continuations being dropped for Ruby
2.0?



James Gray

11/28/2007 1:37:00 PM

0

On Nov 28, 2007, at 7:00 AM, Austin Ziegler wrote:

> On 11/28/07, Vitor Peres <dodecaphonic@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 28, 2007 10:30 AM, Just Another Victim of the Ambient
>> Morality <
>> ihatespam@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> How would one do this in Ruby? You can use .each_with_index
>>> and index
>>> the other list but that assumes that the other list is indexable,
>>> which
>>> only happens to be true of arrays but is not true in general.
>>> I've thought
>>> about implementing some Ruby equivalent of zip() (or preferably
>>> izip()) and
>>> discovered that I can't do so without continuations.
>
> Actually, Ruby 1.9 is losing continuations (hard to do with native
> threads, expensive for stack frame manipulation in JRuby).

That's not entirely true. In Ruby 1.9, continuations have been moved
out of the core but are still available from a standard library.

James Edward Gray II


Randy R

11/28/2007 2:27:00 PM

0


"Richard Conroy" <richard.conroy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:511fa3a20711280513m702a8b1ft2f0ee7f1130ee1be@mail.gmail.com...
> On Nov 28, 2007 12:30 PM, Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
> <ihatespam@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Warning: I don't really know what I'm talking about so if I make any
>> mistakes in terminology, please try to correct me...
>>
>>
>> I've been doing a lot of Python programming and I've discovered that
>> it's actually a very powerful language. The language, itself, lacks any
>> kind of elegance but it has all the power of Ruby and a little more
>> performance. It also has a richer set of libraries, although not in all
>> areas, surprisingly.
>> One thing that Ruby should take from Python are continuations.
>
> Ruby has continuations. Though in practice they are not used much.
> They have caused serious pain in implementing JRuby for instance,
> to the point that IIRC JRuby does not support them out of the box (and
> this doesn't diminish JRuby's value really).
>
> But there are a lot of really smart people looking into Ruby right now.
> Don't expect the dormant Lisp-like features to stay unused.
>
> Python 'lacks any kind of elegance'? Thats unfair. It is more correct to
> say, that Python has a different value system for code expressiveness.

Indeed, I wasn't trying to be fair, I was just expressing a personal
preference. While Python is clearly a powerful and useful language (I'm
programming in it, aren't I?), its syntax choices irk me to no end. len()
is a function that can take a list but .append() is a method of list's?
Arg! Zero and empty strings evaluate to false? Arg! Both zip() and
dict.items() are built-in but izip() hides in the itertools module while
dict.itertimes() gets to be built-in? Arg! Considering how iterators are
more useful than actual lists, double arg!
As it so happened, I did expand on some of the differences between
Python's code values and mine, later on in my post...


> Python and Ruby are more or less peers on the Language Power Continuum.
> Choice between either will depend more on specific task details, specific
> library availability or personal preference.

Of course. I'm programming in Python, aren't I?



MonkeeSage

11/28/2007 3:20:00 PM

0

On Nov 28, 6:29 am, "Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality"
<ihates...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Warning: I don't really know what I'm talking about so if I make any
> mistakes in terminology, please try to correct me...
>
> I've been doing a lot of Python programming and I've discovered that
> it's actually a very powerful language. The language, itself, lacks any
> kind of elegance but it has all the power of Ruby and a little more
> performance. It also has a richer set of libraries, although not in all
> areas, surprisingly.
> One thing that Ruby should take from Python are continuations. Python
> is moving away from list creation and version 3.0 functions will return
> Python iterators, implemented with continuations, instead of actual lists,
> since they are not used nearly as much as you might think.
> The reason why I say that Ruby needs continuations is because they are
> more versatile than Ruby iterators. The reason why I say _that_ is because
> you can make Ruby iterators with continuations but you can't make
> continuations with Ruby iterators. This means that you can implement a
> continuation iterator and Object class can automatically define a Ruby
> iterator based on your continuation iterator. After all, Ruby iterators are
> nice. I'm surprised by how annoyed I am that Python for loops don't return
> a value...
> One weakness of Ruby iterators that continuations don't have is parallel
> iteration. If you have two containers that represent different aspects of
> the same things, it's difficult to iterate over both of them in Ruby. In
> Python, you can do this:
>
> list1 = [1, 2, 3, 4]
> list2 = ['a', 'b', 'c', 'd']
>
> # Okay, Python is more wordy than I'd like
> # I could have just used zip() but you rarely need the list!
> for num, letter in itertools.izip(list1, list2):
> # Do something with both numbers and letters
> print num, letter
> print
>
> How would one do this in Ruby? You can use .each_with_index and index
> the other list but that assumes that the other list is indexable, which only
> happens to be true of arrays but is not true in general. I've thought about
> implementing some Ruby equivalent of zip() (or preferably izip()) and
> discovered that I can't do so without continuations.
> ...Hence, my post. I'm actually at odds with Pythonic philosophy. The
> idea that there should only be one way to do things is ludicrous and a
> constant up hill battle. One thing that Python does right is that it's not
> afraid to "steal" from other languages and that's the right attitude to
> have. Adopt whatever is useful!
> Python 3.0 looks like great language. I'm hoping that Ruby 2.0 will be
> even better 'cause, frankly, Ruby is more fun to program in...
> Thank you...

You actually need a generator, which can be implemented with
continuations, but doesn't have to be (in 1.9 the generators are
implemented with threads -- have a look at generator.rb in 1.8 and 1.9
to see the differences). Using generators, you can implement izip (and
all of itertools if you'd like, though most of it already has
equivalent ruby solutions). Here is a pretty close translation of the
python given in the itertools docs:

========

require 'generator'

module Enumerable
def izip(*enumerables)
enumerables = [self] + enumerables
generators = enumerables.map { | enum |
Generator.new(enum)
}
while generators[0].next?
result = generators.map { | gen |
gen.next
}
yield result
end
end
end

[1,2,3].izip([4,5,6]) { | x, y |
puts x, y
}

========

NB. generator.rb says that generators are slow in 1.8.

Regards,
Jordan

MonkeeSage

11/28/2007 3:29:00 PM

0

On Nov 28, 9:19 am, MonkeeSage <MonkeeS...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 28, 6:29 am, "Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality"
>
>
>
> <ihates...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Warning: I don't really know what I'm talking about so if I make any
> > mistakes in terminology, please try to correct me...
>
> > I've been doing a lot of Python programming and I've discovered that
> > it's actually a very powerful language. The language, itself, lacks any
> > kind of elegance but it has all the power of Ruby and a little more
> > performance. It also has a richer set of libraries, although not in all
> > areas, surprisingly.
> > One thing that Ruby should take from Python are continuations. Python
> > is moving away from list creation and version 3.0 functions will return
> > Python iterators, implemented with continuations, instead of actual lists,
> > since they are not used nearly as much as you might think.
> > The reason why I say that Ruby needs continuations is because they are
> > more versatile than Ruby iterators. The reason why I say _that_ is because
> > you can make Ruby iterators with continuations but you can't make
> > continuations with Ruby iterators. This means that you can implement a
> > continuation iterator and Object class can automatically define a Ruby
> > iterator based on your continuation iterator. After all, Ruby iterators are
> > nice. I'm surprised by how annoyed I am that Python for loops don't return
> > a value...
> > One weakness of Ruby iterators that continuations don't have is parallel
> > iteration. If you have two containers that represent different aspects of
> > the same things, it's difficult to iterate over both of them in Ruby. In
> > Python, you can do this:
>
> > list1 = [1, 2, 3, 4]
> > list2 = ['a', 'b', 'c', 'd']
>
> > # Okay, Python is more wordy than I'd like
> > # I could have just used zip() but you rarely need the list!
> > for num, letter in itertools.izip(list1, list2):
> > # Do something with both numbers and letters
> > print num, letter
> > print
>
> > How would one do this in Ruby? You can use .each_with_index and index
> > the other list but that assumes that the other list is indexable, which only
> > happens to be true of arrays but is not true in general. I've thought about
> > implementing some Ruby equivalent of zip() (or preferably izip()) and
> > discovered that I can't do so without continuations.
> > ...Hence, my post. I'm actually at odds with Pythonic philosophy. The
> > idea that there should only be one way to do things is ludicrous and a
> > constant up hill battle. One thing that Python does right is that it's not
> > afraid to "steal" from other languages and that's the right attitude to
> > have. Adopt whatever is useful!
> > Python 3.0 looks like great language. I'm hoping that Ruby 2.0 will be
> > even better 'cause, frankly, Ruby is more fun to program in...
> > Thank you...
>
> You actually need a generator, which can be implemented with
> continuations, but doesn't have to be (in 1.9 the generators are
> implemented with threads -- have a look at generator.rb in 1.8 and 1.9
> to see the differences). Using generators, you can implement izip (and
> all of itertools if you'd like, though most of it already has
> equivalent ruby solutions). Here is a pretty close translation of the
> python given in the itertools docs:
>
> ========
>
> require 'generator'
>
> module Enumerable
> def izip(*enumerables)
> enumerables = [self] + enumerables
> generators = enumerables.map { | enum |
> Generator.new(enum)
> }
> while generators[0].next?
> result = generators.map { | gen |
> gen.next
> }
> yield result
> end
> end
> end
>
> [1,2,3].izip([4,5,6]) { | x, y |
> puts x, y
>
> }
>
> ========
>
> NB. generator.rb says that generators are slow in 1.8.
>
> Regards,
> Jordan

Ps. The SyncEnumerator class from generator does the same thing as
izip:

SyncEnumerator.new([1,2,3], [4,5,6]).each { | x, y |
puts x, y
}