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comp.lang.ruby

considering writing a book on Ruby/Rails?

Eric H.

10/7/2007 9:12:00 PM

If anyone here is considering writing a book on Ruby or Rails I'd like
to ask you to do one thing:

Please, please, please do not do us the disservice of putting a
chapter(or more) on how to install Ruby/Rails.

Every single book I've read has devoted at least a chapter to installing
it. Point the inexperienced reader to google or almost any other site on
Ruby and let them learn there, please. At $40+ per book, I expect
information that I will want to reference repeatedly instead of
information that I will only use once, EVER, since installing isn't
something you need help with doing on a day to day basis.

I hate to gripe but as of today I'm at Ruby/Rails book number 7 and it
has the exact same info all over again on installing. Enough is enough.
39 Answers

Phlip

10/7/2007 9:42:00 PM

0

> I hate to gripe but as of today I'm at Ruby/Rails book number 7 and it
> has the exact same info all over again on installing. Enough is enough.

Such a book should then provide a warning label "Don't just skip straight to
Chapter 4!"

--
Phlip


John Joyce

10/7/2007 10:28:00 PM

0


>> I hate to gripe but as of today I'm at Ruby/Rails book number 7
>> and it
>> has the exact same info all over again on installing. Enough is
>> enough.

No way. It only seems that way. because most books cater to people
who are fairly new to Ruby or Rails.
Advanced books are always a tougher sell for publishers.
Ultimately, this type of content is likely a publisher/editorial
decision in most cases.
Publishers already pressure most Ruby books' authors to include
something about Rails.
The one thing that can probably be left out is the "getting up and
running with Rails" sections. Particularly in books that don't go any
further than that with the Rails topic.
But marketing is part of the publishing industry, and lots of
publishers want you to buy their book and they know that a book that
looks like it might have everything in it (broad, not deep) will
usually sell better than a more narrowly focused book that goes
deeply into one subject.

The same argument would make you say, " no more chapters about how to
use [insert method or class here] "
Far better suggestion is what topics to write books and chapters about!

I suggest a GUI focused Ruby book that covers Qt, Tk, Wx, etc...
A game / graphics focused Ruby book... (could easily be integrated or
connected with the GUI book)
A whole host of Ruby topics could be entire books based on one or two
classes or modules or gems.
What we have enough of are books that are broad but not deep.
As an example: Pro ActiveRecord is a nice one, but an Expert
ActiveRecord would be better...

Lots of topics to suggest.

Eric H.

10/7/2007 11:16:00 PM

0

Phlip wrote:
>> I hate to gripe but as of today I'm at Ruby/Rails book number 7 and it
>> has the exact same info all over again on installing. Enough is enough.
>
> Such a book should then provide a warning label "Don't just skip
> straight to Chapter 4!"
>

Sadly, you're probably spot on...but funny still.

Eric H.

10/7/2007 11:21:00 PM

0

John Joyce wrote:
>
>>> I hate to gripe but as of today I'm at Ruby/Rails book number 7 and it
>>> has the exact same info all over again on installing. Enough is enough.
>
> No way. It only seems that way. because most books cater to people who
> are fairly new to Ruby or Rails.
> Advanced books are always a tougher sell for publishers.

Nope. It's book #7 and it's supposed to be a fairly advanced book.

> The same argument would make you say, " no more chapters about how to
> use [insert method or class here] "
> Far better suggestion is what topics to write books and chapters about!

Not true. My gripe is that an installation is something you do once and,
unless you've got absolutely no experience and/or the memory of a newt,
you never have to learn to do again since one install is going to be
extremely close to another even across different platforms.
Methods/classes *are* something that we refer to repeatedly, "just to be
sure we got it right"; that's why I made that distinction in my original
post.

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

10/7/2007 11:32:00 PM

0

John Joyce wrote:
> Far better suggestion is what topics to write books and chapters about!
>
> I suggest a GUI focused Ruby book that covers Qt, Tk, Wx, etc...
> A game / graphics focused Ruby book... (could easily be integrated or
> connected with the GUI book)
> A whole host of Ruby topics could be entire books based on one or two
> classes or modules or gems.
> What we have enough of are books that are broad but not deep.
> As an example: Pro ActiveRecord is a nice one, but an Expert
> ActiveRecord would be better...
>
> Lots of topics to suggest.

Agreed ... then again, there are some other good books that don't even
exist:

"Up and Running with Nitro and Og"
"Up and Running with Iowa"
"Pragmatic RSpec" (although I hear that's due in beta by the end of the
year)
"ZenTest and Heckle Primer"
"Selenium ..."
"Watir ..."
"Cerberus ..."

There are some things Ruby has -- like Rails, Nitro, Iowa, RSpec,
ZenTest, Heckle and many others -- that don't exist in the Perl world.
So you can't say, as you can with Ruby/Tk, "Go learn from the O'Reilly
Perl/Tk book and just translate the syntax from Perl to Ruby and you'll
be on the air".

I think the real problem is not that every book on Ruby tells you how to
install it. The real problem is that there doesn't seem to be an actual
paid market for much beyond books about Rails and core Ruby. The other
good stuff, like the things I've listed above, just isn't getting seen.

Then again, as a potential author, I'm not going to spend any time
writing about things I don't use. So don't look to me for a Nitro or
Iowa book, or a book about everything you wanted to know about Ruby on
Windows systems. :)

Chad Perrin

10/7/2007 11:48:00 PM

0

On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 08:31:54AM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> John Joyce wrote:
> >Far better suggestion is what topics to write books and chapters about!
> >
> >I suggest a GUI focused Ruby book that covers Qt, Tk, Wx, etc...
> >A game / graphics focused Ruby book... (could easily be integrated or
> >connected with the GUI book)
> >A whole host of Ruby topics could be entire books based on one or two
> >classes or modules or gems.
> >What we have enough of are books that are broad but not deep.
> >As an example: Pro ActiveRecord is a nice one, but an Expert
> >ActiveRecord would be better...
> >
> >Lots of topics to suggest.
>
> Agreed ... then again, there are some other good books that don't even
> exist:
>
> "Up and Running with Nitro and Og"
> "Up and Running with Iowa"
> "Pragmatic RSpec" (although I hear that's due in beta by the end of the
> year)
> "ZenTest and Heckle Primer"
> "Selenium ..."
> "Watir ..."
> "Cerberus ..."
>
> There are some things Ruby has -- like Rails, Nitro, Iowa, RSpec,
> ZenTest, Heckle and many others -- that don't exist in the Perl world.
> So you can't say, as you can with Ruby/Tk, "Go learn from the O'Reilly
> Perl/Tk book and just translate the syntax from Perl to Ruby and you'll
> be on the air".
>
> I think the real problem is not that every book on Ruby tells you how to
> install it. The real problem is that there doesn't seem to be an actual
> paid market for much beyond books about Rails and core Ruby. The other
> good stuff, like the things I've listed above, just isn't getting seen.
>
> Then again, as a potential author, I'm not going to spend any time
> writing about things I don't use. So don't look to me for a Nitro or
> Iowa book, or a book about everything you wanted to know about Ruby on
> Windows systems. :)

Actually, as a first step in that direction a "common useful libraries"
book -- perhaps called "prospecting for gems", or something cleverer --
would be excellent. I don't mean a listing: I mean an honest-to-goodness
tutorial/primer on a bunch of great libraries/modules for common tasks.

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.ap... ]
McCloctnick the Lucid: "The first rule of magic is simple. Don't waste your
time waving your hands and hopping when a rock or a club will do."

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

10/8/2007 12:19:00 AM

0

Chad Perrin wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 08:31:54AM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>> John Joyce wrote:
>>> Far better suggestion is what topics to write books and chapters about!
>>>
>>> I suggest a GUI focused Ruby book that covers Qt, Tk, Wx, etc...
>>> A game / graphics focused Ruby book... (could easily be integrated or
>>> connected with the GUI book)
>>> A whole host of Ruby topics could be entire books based on one or two
>>> classes or modules or gems.
>>> What we have enough of are books that are broad but not deep.
>>> As an example: Pro ActiveRecord is a nice one, but an Expert
>>> ActiveRecord would be better...
>>>
>>> Lots of topics to suggest.
>> Agreed ... then again, there are some other good books that don't even
>> exist:
>>
>> "Up and Running with Nitro and Og"
>> "Up and Running with Iowa"
>> "Pragmatic RSpec" (although I hear that's due in beta by the end of the
>> year)
>> "ZenTest and Heckle Primer"
>> "Selenium ..."
>> "Watir ..."
>> "Cerberus ..."
>>
>> There are some things Ruby has -- like Rails, Nitro, Iowa, RSpec,
>> ZenTest, Heckle and many others -- that don't exist in the Perl world.
>> So you can't say, as you can with Ruby/Tk, "Go learn from the O'Reilly
>> Perl/Tk book and just translate the syntax from Perl to Ruby and you'll
>> be on the air".
>>
>> I think the real problem is not that every book on Ruby tells you how to
>> install it. The real problem is that there doesn't seem to be an actual
>> paid market for much beyond books about Rails and core Ruby. The other
>> good stuff, like the things I've listed above, just isn't getting seen.
>>
>> Then again, as a potential author, I'm not going to spend any time
>> writing about things I don't use. So don't look to me for a Nitro or
>> Iowa book, or a book about everything you wanted to know about Ruby on
>> Windows systems. :)
>
> Actually, as a first step in that direction a "common useful libraries"
> book -- perhaps called "prospecting for gems", or something cleverer --
> would be excellent. I don't mean a listing: I mean an honest-to-goodness
> tutorial/primer on a bunch of great libraries/modules for common tasks.
>
I can do "gem list --remote" and get a listing of the gems and brief
descriptions -- good enough to tell me whether I want to learn about
them or not. And as far as "common tasks" are concerned, I think that's
covered adequately by "The Ruby Way" and "Ruby Cookbook".

What *I* want is a book on Cerberus, a book on RSpec, a book on
Selenium, Watir/Firewatir, etc. I know *what* these things can do, and I
want to know how to get started doing them without having to decode RDoc
and ri files!

Chad Perrin

10/8/2007 12:22:00 AM

0

On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 09:07:44AM +0900, Peter Cooper wrote:
> On 10/8/07, Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, as a first step in that direction a "common useful libraries"
> > book -- perhaps called "prospecting for gems", or something cleverer --
> > would be excellent. I don't mean a listing: I mean an honest-to-goodness
> > tutorial/primer on a bunch of great libraries/modules for common tasks.
>
>
> It's only a single step, but..
>
> Practical Ruby Gems
> http://www.apress.com/book/view/...

Nice! I didn't know it existed. Thank you.

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.ap... ]
awj @reddit: "The terms never and always are never always true."

Pat Maddox

10/8/2007 1:11:00 AM

0

On 10/7/07, Eric H. <REMOVE-CAPSburnFORout@setmdaiiol.com> wrote:
> If anyone here is considering writing a book on Ruby or Rails I'd like
> to ask you to do one thing:
>
> Please, please, please do not do us the disservice of putting a
> chapter(or more) on how to install Ruby/Rails.
>
> Every single book I've read has devoted at least a chapter to installing
> it. Point the inexperienced reader to google or almost any other site on
> Ruby and let them learn there, please. At $40+ per book, I expect
> information that I will want to reference repeatedly instead of
> information that I will only use once, EVER, since installing isn't
> something you need help with doing on a day to day basis.
>
> I hate to gripe but as of today I'm at Ruby/Rails book number 7 and it
> has the exact same info all over again on installing. Enough is enough.
>
>

Funny you should mention that. I'm actually working on a book
entitled "How to Install Ruby and Rails." It goes through all the
steps, with detailed commentary (which other books lack). I think
it'll be great for taking people from Ruby/Rails installation
journeymen to masters.

Pat

Jay Levitt

10/8/2007 1:33:00 AM

0

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:10:54 +0900, Pat Maddox wrote:

> Funny you should mention that. I'm actually working on a book
> entitled "How to Install Ruby and Rails."

Next you'll suggest that all the other books delete their installation
chapters and link to a page where people can buy your book... :)

--
Jay Levitt |
Boston, MA | My character doesn't like it when they
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | cry or shout or hit.
http://... | - Kristoffer