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comp.lang.ruby

Recent Criticism about Ruby (Scalability, etc.

forrie

9/23/2007 6:17:00 PM

I presume most people here read today's article on Slashdot which had
some critique about Ruby and scaling to a large architecture. Though
the article didn't seem to elaborate into specifics, I'm interested in
other people's feedback and perspective on this.

I'm currently learning Ruby. One of the first questions I had (and
Googled for) had to do with scalability, for large enterprise-class
applications. I found a couple of articles, but haven't yet tested
this in a lab setting. Then there is Parrot, which I've not used
yet.

>From what I have learned in the past (and that may not be very
complete yet!), Java scales very well due to it's VM. I think Java is
considered a static-typed language versus dynamically-typed language
(a la Ruby), whatever differences that means at that level.

Due to the growing popularity of Ruby and Rails, I would imagine this
would be of importance. Pardon if I've missed something (I have
searched, and am searching) - that being the case, URLs to articles
would be appreciated.

I remember a previous gig where we used Java heavily and the scaling
was pretty linear. Need more space? Add another blade and so on...
probably not the most optimal method - considering their load
balancing was based on connections not actual system load, etc.


Thanks!
77 Answers

Tim Hunter

9/23/2007 6:28:00 PM

0

forrie@gmail.com wrote:
> I presume most people here read today's article on Slashdot which had
> some critique about Ruby and scaling to a large architecture. Though
> the article didn't seem to elaborate into specifics, I'm interested in
> other people's feedback and perspective on this.
>
> I'm currently learning Ruby. One of the first questions I had (and
> Googled for) had to do with scalability, for large enterprise-class
> applications. I found a couple of articles, but haven't yet tested
> this in a lab setting. Then there is Parrot, which I've not used
> yet.
>
>>From what I have learned in the past (and that may not be very
> complete yet!), Java scales very well due to it's VM. I think Java is
> considered a static-typed language versus dynamically-typed language
> (a la Ruby), whatever differences that means at that level.
>
> Due to the growing popularity of Ruby and Rails, I would imagine this
> would be of importance. Pardon if I've missed something (I have
> searched, and am searching) - that being the case, URLs to articles
> would be appreciated.
>
> I remember a previous gig where we used Java heavily and the scaling
> was pretty linear. Need more space? Add another blade and so on...
> probably not the most optimal method - considering their load
> balancing was based on connections not actual system load, etc.
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>

Hmmm...Are you talking about the Derek Silvers CD Baby blog post? Derek
was talking about Ruby on Rails, not Ruby, and none of his 7 reasons had
to do with the scalability of RoR.

Or have I missed another Ruby post on Slashdot today?

In any case, this is a Ruby-specific list. There's tons of people on the
Ruby On Rails mailing list that would love to debate this issue with
you. See http://www.rubyonrails.com....

--
RMagick OS X Installer [http://rubyforge.org/project...]
RMagick Hints & Tips [http://rubyforge.org/forum/forum.php?for...]
RMagick Installation FAQ [http://rmagick.rubyforge.org/instal...]

Phlip

9/23/2007 7:09:00 PM

0

forrie wrote:

> I presume most people here read today's article on Slashdot which had
> some critique about Ruby and scaling to a large architecture.

Nope.

I go with Dave Thomas's verbiage "Ruby stays out of your way". That says it
all - dynamic typing, clear simple statements, endless extensibility, and
realistic scaling, all in a nutshell.

> I remember a previous gig where we used Java heavily and the scaling
> was pretty linear. Need more space? Add another blade and so on...

That's not scaling! (Okaaay, that's only one aspect of scaling!)

How did your Java design itself scale? The rate you add new features - did
it go up or down over time? _That's_ scaling. If the rate doesn't slow down,
you have time to tune your code to speed it up and handle more users...

--
Phlip


M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

9/23/2007 9:52:00 PM

0

Tim Hunter wrote:
> Hmmm...Are you talking about the Derek Silvers CD Baby blog post? Derek
> was talking about Ruby on Rails, not Ruby, and none of his 7 reasons had
> to do with the scalability of RoR.
>
> Or have I missed another Ruby post on Slashdot today?
>
> In any case, this is a Ruby-specific list. There's tons of people on the
> Ruby On Rails mailing list that would love to debate this issue with
> you. See http://www.rubyonrails.com....
>

I recently rejoined the Rails list, mostly because I'm looking for a
Rails application to include in my benchmark suite. "forrie" posted a
similar question on the Rails list and I answered it there.

But ... you're right -- the article on Slashdot is just a pointer to the
O'Reilly Ruby blog entry about the CD Baby migration from PHP to Rails
and back to PHP, with very little about scalability.

So ... while I've got your attention, I'm *still* looking for an open
source Rails application to add to my benchmark suite. So far, what's on
the Rails site in that category is rather out of date, but I think there
are one or two there I can use (rTPlan and Substruct). What I need is an
open source Rails application *with complete installation and
configuration instructions* -- that is, don't assume I wrote the thing
and know how to set up the databases, etc. :)

Jeremy McAnally

9/23/2007 10:46:00 PM

0

Have you looked at Beast?

http://beast...

On 9/23/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:
> Tim Hunter wrote:
> > Hmmm...Are you talking about the Derek Silvers CD Baby blog post? Derek
> > was talking about Ruby on Rails, not Ruby, and none of his 7 reasons had
> > to do with the scalability of RoR.
> >
> > Or have I missed another Ruby post on Slashdot today?
> >
> > In any case, this is a Ruby-specific list. There's tons of people on the
> > Ruby On Rails mailing list that would love to debate this issue with
> > you. See http://www.rubyonrails.com....
> >
>
> I recently rejoined the Rails list, mostly because I'm looking for a
> Rails application to include in my benchmark suite. "forrie" posted a
> similar question on the Rails list and I answered it there.
>
> But ... you're right -- the article on Slashdot is just a pointer to the
> O'Reilly Ruby blog entry about the CD Baby migration from PHP to Rails
> and back to PHP, with very little about scalability.
>
> So ... while I've got your attention, I'm *still* looking for an open
> source Rails application to add to my benchmark suite. So far, what's on
> the Rails site in that category is rather out of date, but I think there
> are one or two there I can use (rTPlan and Substruct). What I need is an
> open source Rails application *with complete installation and
> configuration instructions* -- that is, don't assume I wrote the thing
> and know how to set up the databases, etc. :)
>
>


--
http://www.jeremymca...

My free Ruby e-book:
http://www.humblelittlerubybook...

My blogs:
http://www.mrneigh...
http://www.rubyinpra...

Phlip

9/25/2007 4:04:00 AM

0

> I presume most people here read today's article on Slashdot

Geez - I wish I could trash-talk Rails like that. I need a way to get my
blog entries to the top of the commented-on lists!

Oh, here:

http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/09/big_requirements_up_...

--
Phleep


Chad Perrin

9/25/2007 8:15:00 AM

0

On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 01:04:21PM +0900, Phlip wrote:
> >I presume most people here read today's article on Slashdot
>
> Geez - I wish I could trash-talk Rails like that. I need a way to get my
> blog entries to the top of the commented-on lists!
>
> Oh, here:
>
> http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/09/big_requirements_up_...

That's actually quite good. Thanks for the URL -- I enjoyed the read.

I had a forehead-smacking moment while reading that, where I realized
that *of course* it's true that after two years of not getting anything
substantially right, there's obviously something else wrong besides
choosing the wrong tool (if it's wrong for that purpose at all, which
does not appear to be a settled matter from where I'm sitting).

Hell, two years should be enough time to get something working in COBOL,
let alone Rails.

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.ap... ]
Leon Festinger: "A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him
you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts and figures and he questions
your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point."

Ruby Maniac

9/25/2007 1:37:00 PM

0

On Sep 25, 1:15 am, Chad Perrin <per...@apotheon.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 01:04:21PM +0900, Phlip wrote:
> > >I presume most people here read today's article on Slashdot
>
> > Geez - I wish I could trash-talk Rails like that. I need a way to get my
> > blog entries to the top of the commented-on lists!
>
> > Oh, here:
>
> >http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/09/big_requireme......
>
> That's actually quite good. Thanks for the URL -- I enjoyed the read.
>
> I had a forehead-smacking moment while reading that, where I realized
> that *of course* it's true that after two years of not getting anything
> substantially right, there's obviously something else wrong besides
> choosing the wrong tool (if it's wrong for that purpose at all, which
> does not appear to be a settled matter from where I'm sitting).
>
> Hell, two years should be enough time to get something working in COBOL,
> let alone Rails.
>
> --
> CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [http://ccd.ap...]
> Leon Festinger: "A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him
> you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts and figures and he questions
> your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point."

Ruby scales just fine as long as you are willing to throw a ton of
compute hardware at it !

I believe Twitter is successfully using Ruby for their site but then
they have also invested in a ton of servers dedicated to running
hundreds of Mongrels.

So yeah, get out your checkbooks and write more checks for more
servers and sure Ruby scales just fine !

Ruby Rocks !

Glenn Gillen

9/25/2007 2:02:00 PM

0

> So yeah, get out your checkbooks and write more checks for more
> servers and sure Ruby scales just fine !
>
> Ruby Rocks !

2 years x 1 developer @ $70k = 58x Dell PowerEdge 860 Quad Core Xeon
X3210s

Job Security Rocks!

Ruby Maniac

9/25/2007 2:09:00 PM

0

On Sep 25, 7:01 am, Glenn Gillen <glenn.gil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So yeah, get out your checkbooks and write more checks for more
> > servers and sure Ruby scales just fine !
>
> > Ruby Rocks !
>
> 2 years x 1 developer @ $70k = 58x Dell PowerEdge 860 Quad Core Xeon
> X3210s
>
> Job Security Rocks!

Ruby is infintely scalable as long as you got the bucks to pay for all
that hardware ! (*Just forget the fact that another language might
have saved some money in compute gear. I mean, don't even think about
this at-all. Why are you still reading this sentence? I told you to
forget about what those 58 server cost... Money is irrelevant to those
who love Ruby! *)

Ruby Rocks !

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

9/26/2007 12:28:00 AM

0

Chad Perrin wrote:
> I had a forehead-smacking moment while reading that, where I realized
> that *of course* it's true that after two years of not getting anything
> substantially right, there's obviously something else wrong besides
> choosing the wrong tool (if it's wrong for that purpose at all, which
> does not appear to be a settled matter from where I'm sitting).
>
> Hell, two years should be enough time to get something working in COBOL,
> let alone Rails.

I don't think it was a matter of not getting something working -- IIRC
CD Baby did *work* when it was in Rails. In reality, I think it was that
he didn't understand MVC, Ruby or Rails when he started the migration --
it just looked cool, so he went out and hired a Rails programmer to do it.