Asp Forum - see raw xml in soap4r

Raymond O'connor

7/20/2007 7:27:00 PM

Hi,

Is there any way with soap4r to see the raw xml of the response without
turning on the debug mode?

For me at least, my soap scripts work correctly 99% of the time, however
occasionally they raise exceptions and it would be handy on these cases
to see the raw xml that is causing the problem. Is there any method I
can call on the main soap response object to dump the raw xml its using?
It would be handy to print this out along with the exception in some
cases.

Thanks,
Ray

--
Posted via http://www.ruby-....

5 Answers

NAKAMURA, Hiroshi

7/22/2007 6:07:00 AM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

Raymond O'Connor wrote:
> Is there any way with soap4r to see the raw xml of the response without
> turning on the debug mode?

aDriver.wiredump_dev = STDERR

dumps request/response wiredump to STDERR.

aDriver.wiredump_dev = str = ''
[...]
aLogger.info(str)

dumps it to a logfile.

aDriver.wiredump_file_base = "/home/nahi/tmp/foo"

writes request/response wiredumps as a specified file.

// NaHi

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Raymond O'connor

7/23/2007 8:44:00 PM

Hi
Thanks for the response, is there a way to turn it on after the request?
I don't want to log every request/response as this program makes tens of
thousands of requests daily. Is there a way just to see the
request/response if an error occurred?

thanks,
Ray

NAKAMURA, Hiroshi wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi,
>
> Raymond O'Connor wrote:
>> Is there any way with soap4r to see the raw xml of the response without
>> turning on the debug mode?
>
> aDriver.wiredump_dev = STDERR
>
> dumps request/response wiredump to STDERR.
>
> aDriver.wiredump_dev = str = ''
> [...]
> aLogger.info(str)
>
> dumps it to a logfile.
>
> aDriver.wiredump_file_base = "/home/nahi/tmp/foo"
>
> writes request/response wiredumps as a specified file.
>
> // NaHi
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.1 (Cygwin)
>
> iQEVAwUBRqL0Fh9L2jg5EEGlAQKt5wgAjRyPaGkqb8OET7MPmu7DYGrG/3nAL8tO
> 1p3a7QEhbGIHkTV6hoEnCmFYPIX+u40RhdYxK/qhgLlfbhJXM3ylZyA6GfHn9GWx
> eL/Y7i8UhKs6fdcS9eTt0cin8gUUtQVVOt0yHsjEdQC7tI7ljFnRbMQ/wP/1e9Ll
> CLcEfBTxYQIl7JlDzvojPQLRVgC+fTvSyth4bPwmt6itKULOXHsThaS4Hq4g9xij
> wpmXgFdYJGGG8pBcoHOfsaA21y4JIaMcYxhPC+udDWxYwc6QoNITivuTFmBoHISn
> ynpDSxJtvS9Kh7JBm7V19AckJLa+CnGjVNx4NWoEKe7FPN1CKUeLwg==
> =Mw/Q
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Posted via http://www.ruby-....

NAKAMURA, Hiroshi

7/26/2007 9:42:00 AM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

Raymond O'Connor wrote:
> Thanks for the response, is there a way to turn it on after the request?
> I don't want to log every request/response as this program makes tens of
> thousands of requests daily. Is there a way just to see the
> request/response if an error occurred?

No, there isn't. If an error occurred, the response XML is a SOAPFault
almost always. It should not be what you want, right?

// NaHi

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Zev

9/17/2010 10:21:00 AM

On Sep 16, 7:50 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> Zev wrote:
> > On Sep 16, 12:57 am, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> >> Zev wrote:
> >>> On Sep 15, 8:03 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> >>>> Zev wrote:
> >>>>> On Sep 15, 1:07 am, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> >>>>>> Zev wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sep 14, 8:16 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Zev wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 14, 6:15 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Zev wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 13, 11:30 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Zev wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 13, 8:56 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Emma wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Perhaps you'd like to address the following:
> >>>>>>>> -- This article from Israel's Haaretz Newspaper shows Israel's OWN
> >>>>>>>> documentation of its ILLEGAL systematic incremental theft of Palestinian
> >>>>>>>> land.
> >>>>>>>> Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlements -
> >>>>>>>http://www.vfp143.org/lit/Gaza/Secret_Israeli_database_reve......
> >>>>>>> Land ownership in Palestine is a can of worms,
> >>>>>>> you can sense that from this very article.
> >>>>>> The *illegal* incremental theft of Palestinian land is blatant and
> >>>>>> pervasive - and undeniably unfair to the Palestinians as the Israeli
> >>>>>> legal "authorities" in charge of permits, etc. are biased in favor of
> >>>>>> the settlements. None of what you've written acknowledges those facts or
> >>>>>> any of the other glaring injustices outlined in the piece.
> >>>>>>> Most settlements were built on what were barren hill-tops
> >>>>>>> and obviously not privately owned.
> >>>>>>> If peace talks succeed, the PA will get some of the land back
> >>>>>>> and will be compensated for the rest with other land,
> >>>>>>> currently part of Israel.
> >>>>>>> BTW do Beduin tents all over the Negev bother you?
> >>>>>>> Isn't it the same thing?
> >>>>>>>> -- This BBC report refers to Israel's documented war crimes in Gaza
> >>>>>>>> UN backs Gaza war crimes reporthttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8...
> >>>>>>> The following is interesting because of its discussion
> >>>>>>> of "asymmetric" war in the M.E.
> >>>>>>> Part of it is devoted to aspects of IDF behavior
> >>>>>>> in the war in Gaza of last January.
> >>>>>>> I'm including it because of the remarks you made
> >>>>>>> about Israeli activities in that war.
> >>>>>>>http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&......
> >>>>>>> by RichardKempCBE
> >>>>>>> Published July 2009
> >>>>>>> Address to Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs
> >>>>>>> Joint International Conference
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>> HAMAS, THE GAZA WAR AND ACCOUNTABILITY UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW
> >>>>>>> 18 June 2009
> >>>>>>> International Law and Military Operations in Practice
> >>>>>>> Colonel RichardKempCBE
> >>>>>>> I will examine the practicalities, challenges and difficulties faced
> >>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>> military forces in trying to fight within the provisions of
> >>>>>>> international
> >>>>>>> law against an enemy that deliberately and consistently flouts
> >>>>>>> international
> >>>>>>> law.
> >>>>>> [snipped for brevity]
> >>>>>>> endquote.
> >>>>>>>> -- Watch how the Israelis have been stealing land from the Palestinians:
> >>>>>>>> -Inside Israeli land grabs- :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_...
> >>>>>>>> If you are not a coward, you will honestly address these legitimate
> >>>>>>>> issues instead of trying to label me anti-Semitic.
> >>>>>>> Well, there you have it, my uncowardly, honest response.
> >>>>>>> I'd like to see your response to this,
> >>>>>>> but if you don't change your tone, it will be "for the record only".
> >>>>>> Don't patronize, fella. It makes you look like an arrogsnt ass.
> >>>>> Fingers twitch as you typed that?
> >>>>> Get excited when you write sentences like that?
> >>>> You're now bringing your ability to respond rationally to the issues
> >>>> here into question with your displays of childish immaturity, Zev.
> >>> Issues???
> >>> You mean you expected me to respond to the *content*
> >>> of that remark, and you claim *I* display immaturity?
> >>>>>> I notice you ignored the video:
> >>>>>> Watch how the Israelis have been stealing land from the Palestinians:
> >>>>>> -Inside Israeli land grabs- :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_...
> >>>>>> As for your obviously non-objective piece from the -Jerusalem Center
> >>>>>> for Public Affairs-
> >>>>>> Posting a Jewish piece from an undeniably self-serving Jewish website is
> >>>>>> a little bit more than laughably transparent and glaringly lacking in
> >>>>>> addressing essential specific facts that were established in the UN report.
> >>>>> Why am I thinking this guy is an anti-Semite.....
> >>>> Apparently its because since you're unwilling or incapable of honestly
> >>>> and directly dealing with the facts at hand, calling a critic an
> >>>> anti-Semite is an easy cop out.
> >>> Bad guess.
> >>> It's because instead of responding to a statement made by an officer
> >>> in the British Army who isn't Jewish and owes nothing to Israel,
> >>> you note, as if it's all one needs to know,
> >>> that the talk was made at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs,
> >>> that it’s a "Jewish" piece, and
> >>> that the link is to "an undeniably self-serving Jewish website".
> >> You've got to be kidding!
>
> >> The British Colonel's first sentence gives a direct clue to his abject bias:
>
> >> "I will examine the practicalities, challenges and difficulties faced by
> >> military forces in trying to fight within the provisions of
> >> international law against an enemy that deliberately and consistently
> >> flouts international law."
>
> >> ...and it continues in that biased vein throughout. NO WAY does it
> >> effectively address any of Israel's ACTUAL war crimes outlined in the UN
> >> report. Just the opposite, it makes excuses for them.
>
> >> As I suggested earlier, for you to attempt pawn off this piece as in any
> >> way remotely effective in addressing the actual Israeli war crimes
> >> documented by the UN, is laughable.
>
> > There are indeed "practicalities, challenges and difficulties...".
> > Too bad you didn't have time to read past the first sentence,
> > I would have been happy to discuss them with you.
>
> That piece is little more than a feeble and failed attempt to discredit
> an exhaustively detailed 575 page documented outline of the war crimes
> committed during Gaza conflict.
>
> For the third time, it's laughable that you'd consider it as anything
> remotely adequate to address the actual facts in the Report of the
> United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict.
>
> >>>>>> Colonel RichardKempis an apologist for Israel who personally thinks he
> >>>>>> can effectively challenge the Goldstone report. He did not... by any
> >>>>>> major stretch of the imagination.
> >>>>>> The piece is essentially ignoring the actual specific documented events
> >>>>>> and making excuses for the blatant, undeniable war crimes committed by
> >>>>>> the Israeli's that have been outlined in the Report of the United
> >>>>>> Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict.
> >>>>>> Readers can see the thoroughly investigated facts for themselves from
> >>>>>> the Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza
> >>>>>> Conflict - here:http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsessi......
> >>>> For readers to see for themselves here's a much more brief summary of
> >>>> the Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza
> >>>> Conflict:http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/8D52A795C565E9AF852576...
> >>>>> Do you take an interest in Goldstone's
> >>>>> record as a South African Judge?
> >>>>> He sentenced dozens of Black Africans to death.
> >>>>> Later, he excused himself, saying,
> >>>>> "what could I do, I had to uphold the law?"
> >>>>> No wonder he looks for softs, well paying jobs, *outside* of SA,
> >>>>> and serves his new master well, hoping for more.
> >>>>> Watch this video and weep over what has
> >>>>> become of U.N.s promise to mankind.
> >>>>> The outrageous response by the chairman of the
> >>>>> Human Rights Commission should be shared by all
> >>>>> who cherish human rights.
> >>>>>http://new.ba-bamail.co.il/View.aspx?emailid=1318&memberid=...
> >>>> I just watched that video. The young angry arrogant hostile fellow from
> >>>> the activist group 'United Nations Watch' [which is affiliated with the
> >>>> American Jewish Committee] who was ranting sounds like I imagine you
> >>>> would rant. He was way out of line and offensive and made an ass of
> >>>> himself. And he was rightly admonished by the chairman.
> >>> John, there's some truth to that, he's no diplomat.
> >>> But his accusations are damning, and undeniably true.
> >>> Don't you remember what you said about discrediting the messenger?
> >> They are an isolated sensationalized example of cherry-picked failings
> >> that are not at characteristic of the body as whole but fit neatly into
> >> the agenda of the ranting fellow.
>
> > It's not cherry-picking, John.
> >http://newsblaze.com/story/20100915160929zzzz.nb/top...
> > "The Council failed to issue a condemnatory resolution on Iran
> > and on a number of countries with ongoing systematic abuses such as
> > Belarus, China, Cuba, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Syria.
> > It continued its disproportionate focus on Israel.".
> > There's more criticism there, if you take the time to read it.
>
> There is *always* criticism and there are *always* ways for you to evade
> the ACTUAL established facts that you are so desperately trying to avoid
> *directly* looking at, acknowldeging and addressing.
>
> > BTW, this link is fromhttp://www.freedom...
>
> >>>> Here, instead of looking at the exhaustively documented facts, Zev [as
> >>>> is typical of apologists for bad behavior everywhere who can't admit the
> >>>> disfavorable facts] is desperately attempting to discredit the messenger.
> >>>> I earlier posted this piece by BBC News...
> >>>> UN backs Gaza war crimes reporthttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8...
> >>>> The United Nations overwhelmingly gave its support to the war crimes report.
> >>> Several of the mortars which landed
> >>> in Israel today (Wednesday, Sept 15)
> >>> contained phosphorus.
> >>> When will Goldstone write up a "War Crimes Report" about it?
> >> Don't try to change the subject, Zev. It just reinforces my statement
> >> that you are unwilling or unable to address the specific issue at hand.
>
> >> The pervue of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza
> >> Conflict was limited to the Gaza conflict - as you no doubt know.
>
> >> Indeed, the UN report, which you are apparently desperately attempting
> >> to minimize in import, contains a number of references to Israel's
> >> illegal use of white phosphorous against the Palestinians during the
> >> Gaza conflict.
>
> > I know that, that's why I mentioned the mortars from Gaza.
> > I'm not changing the subject at all.
> > What prevents the UN from taking an interest in it?
> > My guess is that they know they won't be able to blame Israel.
>
> You're establishing a clear pattern here, Zev, of doing *anything* and
> *everything* to evade and avoid *directly* looking at, acknowldeging and
> addressing the ACTUAL estblished facts of the specific issues at hand.
>
> Israel's decades' long occupation of Palestinian lands, the gross and
> blatant ongoing human rights abuses and un-Democratic unequal legal
> treatment Palestinians, the systematic incremental theft of Palestinian
> lands and the long list of grossly disproportionate war crimes committed
> by the Israelis against the Palestinians.
>
> Here they are again:
>
> Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlements -http://www.vfp143.org/lit/Gaza/Secret_Israeli_database_reve.......
>
> Watch one of the ways the Israelis have been stealing land from the
> Palestinians:
>
> Inside Israeli land grabs:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_...
>
> = =
>
> Israel's documented war crimes in Gaza
>
> Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflicthttp://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsessi......
>
> Since the UN report is 575 pages, here is the much more brief summary:http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/8D52A795C565E9AF852576...
>
> And here is the United Nations press release:
>
> 'UN mission finds evidence of war crimes by both sides in Gaza conflict'
>
> – The United Nations fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict at the
> start of this year has found evidence that both Israeli forces and
> Palestinian militants committed serious war crimes and breaches of
> humanitarian law, which may amount to crimes against humanity.
>
> “We came to the conclusion, on the basis of the facts we found, that
> there was strong evidence to establish that numerous serious violations
> of international law, both humanitarian law and human rights law, were
> committed by Israel during the military operations in Gaza,” the head of
> the mission, Justice Richard Goldstone, told a press briefing today.
>
> “The mission concluded that actions amounting to war crimes and
> possibly, in some respects, crimes against humanity, were committed by
> the Israel Defense Force (IDF).”
>
> “There’s no question that the firing of rockets and mortars [by armed
> groups from Gaza] was deliberate and calculated to cause loss of life
> and injury to civilians and damage to civilian structures. The mission
> found that these actions also amount to serious war crimes and also
> possibly crimes against humanity,” he said.
>
> The 575-page report by the four-person mission was released today, ahead
> of its presentation to the UN’s Human Rights Council in Geneva on 29
> September.
>
> “The mission finds that the conduct of the Israeli armed forces
> constitute grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention in respect of
> wilful killings and wilfully causing great suffering to protected
> persons and as such give rise to individual criminal responsibility,”
> the report’s executive summary said. “It also finds that the direct
> targeting and arbitrary killing of Palestinian civilians is a violation
> of the right to life.”
>
> It went on to criticize the “deliberate and systematic policy on the
> part of the Israeli armed forces to target industrial sites and water
> installations,” and the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields.
>
> On the objectives and strategy of Israel’s military operation, the
> mission concluded that military planners deliberately followed a
> doctrine which involved “the application of disproportionate force and
> the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and
> infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations.”
>
> On the firing of mortars from Gaza, the mission concluded that they were
> indiscriminate and deliberate attacks against a civilian population and
> “would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity.”
> It added that their apparent intention of spreading terror among the
> Israeli civilian population was a violation of international law.
>
> The report recommended that the Security Council should require Israel
> to take steps to launch appropriate independent investigations into the
> alleged crimes committed, in conformity with international standards,
> and report back on these investigations within six months.
>
> It further called on the Security Council to appoint a committee of
> experts to monitor the proceedings taken by the Israeli Government. If
> these did not take place, or were not independent and in conformity with
> international standards, the report called for the Security Council to
> refer the situation in Gaza to the Prosecutor of the International
> Criminal Court (ICC).
>
> It also called on the Security Council to require the committee of
> experts to perform a similar role with regard to the relevant
> Palestinian authorities.
>
> At today’s briefing, Justice Goldstone said the mission had investigated
> 36 incidents that took place during the Israeli operation in Gaza, which
> he said did not relate to decisions taken in the heat of battle, but to
> deliberate policies that were adopted and decisions that were taken.
>
> As an example, he described one such incident: a mortar attack on a
> mosque in Gaza during a religious service, which killed 15 members of
> the congregation and injured many others. Justice Goldstone said that
> even if allegations that the mosque was used as sanctuary by military
> groups and that weapons were stored there were true, there was still “no
> justification under international humanitarian law to mortar the mosque
> during a service,” because it could have been attacked during the night,
> when it was not being used by civilians.
>
> Justice Goldstone added that the report reflected the unanimous view of
> the mission’s four members.
>
> The other members of the team are Christine Chinkin, Professor of
> International Law at the London School of Economics and Political
> Science at the University of London; Hina Jilani, Advocate of the
> Supreme Court of Pakistan and former Special Representative of the
> Secretary-General on Human Rights Defenders; and retired Colonel Desmond
> Travers, member of the Board of Directors of the Institute for
> International Criminal Investigations (IICI).

> http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?Ne...

None of the members of the team has an intimate knowledge of Gaza,
none knows Arabic *and* is not known to be biased against Israel,
2 of Goldstone's 3 aides are known to be biased against Israel.
You don't have to be a genius to see which way the cards were stacked.

I hate to respond to your post with a cut-and-paste job
as I'm doing here, but I don't have the time to do it justice.
For now, this is the best I can do.

http://www.goldstoner...
Understanding the Goldstone report
On September 15, 2009, Judge Richard Goldstone and his Commission
presented their 575-page Report of the United Nations Fact Finding
Mission on the Gaza Conflict to its mandating authority, the United
Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC). From the beginning, observers
raised serious questions about the Commission’s propriety. These
involved its mandate and terms of reference, the sponsoring body’s
domination by dictatorships that regularly abuse human rights in their
own countries, the biases and prejudices of members of the Commission
itself. And yet, the report will play a key role in the effort to
specifically target Israeli troops in both boycott movements and
lawfare attacks, and more broadly to establish a reigning paradigm of
international law as applied to 21st century asymmetrical conflicts.

Those of us who have constructed Understanding the Goldstone Report,
have been following the claims under contention since the events
themselves almost a year ago, and have read the report in detail. We
offer a wide range of analysis, from careful examination of specific
incidents and controversies to broader legal and conceptual issues.
In so doing, we have come to the following conclusions:

The report violates international standards for inquries, including UN
rules on fact-finding, replicating earlier UNHRC biased statements.
The Commission systematically favored witnesses and evidence put
forward by anti-Israel advocates, and dismissed evidence and testimony
that would undermine its case.
The commission relied extensively on mediating agencies, especially UN
and NGOs, which have a documented hostility to Israel; the report
reproduces earlier reports and claims from these agencies.
At the same time, the Commission inexplicably downplayed or ignored
substantial evidence of Hamas’ commission of war crimes, crimes
against humanity and crimes of terror, including specifically its
victimization of the Palestinian population by its use of human
shields, civilian dress for combatants, and combat use of protected
objects like ambulances, hospitals and mosques.
The Commission openly denies a presumption of innocence to the
Israelis accused of crimes (while honoring Hamas’ presumed innocence)
and acknowledges that it made accusations of crimes without proof that
would stand up in court.
The report contains numerous gratuitous digressions into issues beyond
the purview of a fact-finding commission that are inaccurate and
profoundly hostile to Israel and Jews.
The Commission distorted legal standards, imposing on Israel standards
that reverse their generally understood and applied meaning, while
ignoring important rules of international law that put the onus of
responsibility on an organization as base, by Goldstone’s own
standards, as Hamas.

In all our analyses and conclusions, we have adhered to principles of
empirical evidence and consistent reasoning. Since the skeptical
reader might well accuse us of making up our mind in advance, we
emphasize that one should not agree or disagree with us because of how
one feels about Israel or the Palestinians, but because of the
evidence. We invite readers to examine our arguments without
prejudice, make up their own minds and, where they see problems,
challenge our arguments. Sweeping and inflammatory rhetoric not
welcome.

If you find even a portion of what we argue to have merit, you may be
interested in some further questions that these observations raise:

How could a Judge with Goldstone's reputation have presided over such
a Commission?
What are the long-term consequences of such judgments on the
containment or encouragement of future war crimes in asymmetrical wars
like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
What are the mediated paths by which we receive our information about
the Arab-Israeli conflict?
If Goldstone's approach is misguided, how should people of good will,
concerned for both justice and humanity, proceed in dealing with
asymmetrical warfare?

We welcome both considered and reasoned comment and submissions of
essays to the discussion. It is our belief that the most interesting
discussions of Goldstone will take place in cyberspace, in the new and
raucus “City of Letters” – the blogosphere.

John Manning

9/17/2010 5:23:00 PM

Zev wrote:
> On Sep 16, 7:50 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>> Zev wrote:
>>> On Sep 16, 12:57 am, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>> Zev wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 15, 8:03 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>>>> Zev wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sep 15, 1:07 am, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Zev wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 14, 8:16 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Zev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 14, 6:15 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Zev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 13, 11:30 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 13, 8:56 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Emma wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you'd like to address the following:
>>>>>>>>>> -- This article from Israel's Haaretz Newspaper shows Israel's OWN
>>>>>>>>>> documentation of its ILLEGAL systematic incremental theft of Palestinian
>>>>>>>>>> land.
>>>>>>>>>> Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlements -
>>>>>>>>> http://www.vfp143.org/lit/Gaza/Secret_Israeli_database_reve......
>>>>>>>>> Land ownership in Palestine is a can of worms,
>>>>>>>>> you can sense that from this very article.
>>>>>>>> The *illegal* incremental theft of Palestinian land is blatant and
>>>>>>>> pervasive - and undeniably unfair to the Palestinians as the Israeli
>>>>>>>> legal "authorities" in charge of permits, etc. are biased in favor of
>>>>>>>> the settlements. None of what you've written acknowledges those facts or
>>>>>>>> any of the other glaring injustices outlined in the piece.
>>>>>>>>> Most settlements were built on what were barren hill-tops
>>>>>>>>> and obviously not privately owned.
>>>>>>>>> If peace talks succeed, the PA will get some of the land back
>>>>>>>>> and will be compensated for the rest with other land,
>>>>>>>>> currently part of Israel.
>>>>>>>>> BTW do Beduin tents all over the Negev bother you?
>>>>>>>>> Isn't it the same thing?
>>>>>>>>>> -- This BBC report refers to Israel's documented war crimes in Gaza
>>>>>>>>>> UN backs Gaza war crimes reporthttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8...
>>>>>>>>> The following is interesting because of its discussion
>>>>>>>>> of "asymmetric" war in the M.E.
>>>>>>>>> Part of it is devoted to aspects of IDF behavior
>>>>>>>>> in the war in Gaza of last January.
>>>>>>>>> I'm including it because of the remarks you made
>>>>>>>>> about Israeli activities in that war.
>>>>>>>>> http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&......
>>>>>>>>> by RichardKempCBE
>>>>>>>>> Published July 2009
>>>>>>>>> Address to Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs
>>>>>>>>> Joint International Conference
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> HAMAS, THE GAZA WAR AND ACCOUNTABILITY UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW
>>>>>>>>> 18 June 2009
>>>>>>>>> International Law and Military Operations in Practice
>>>>>>>>> Colonel RichardKempCBE
>>>>>>>>> I will examine the practicalities, challenges and difficulties faced
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> military forces in trying to fight within the provisions of
>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>> law against an enemy that deliberately and consistently flouts
>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>> law.
>>>>>>>> [snipped for brevity]
>>>>>>>>> endquote.
>>>>>>>>>> -- Watch how the Israelis have been stealing land from the Palestinians:
>>>>>>>>>> -Inside Israeli land grabs- :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_...
>>>>>>>>>> If you are not a coward, you will honestly address these legitimate
>>>>>>>>>> issues instead of trying to label me anti-Semitic.
>>>>>>>>> Well, there you have it, my uncowardly, honest response.
>>>>>>>>> I'd like to see your response to this,
>>>>>>>>> but if you don't change your tone, it will be "for the record only".
>>>>>>>> Don't patronize, fella. It makes you look like an arrogsnt ass.
>>>>>>> Fingers twitch as you typed that?
>>>>>>> Get excited when you write sentences like that?
>>>>>> You're now bringing your ability to respond rationally to the issues
>>>>>> here into question with your displays of childish immaturity, Zev.
>>>>> Issues???
>>>>> You mean you expected me to respond to the *content*
>>>>> of that remark, and you claim *I* display immaturity?
>>>>>>>> I notice you ignored the video:
>>>>>>>> Watch how the Israelis have been stealing land from the Palestinians:
>>>>>>>> -Inside Israeli land grabs- :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_...
>>>>>>>> As for your obviously non-objective piece from the -Jerusalem Center
>>>>>>>> for Public Affairs-
>>>>>>>> Posting a Jewish piece from an undeniably self-serving Jewish website is
>>>>>>>> a little bit more than laughably transparent and glaringly lacking in
>>>>>>>> addressing essential specific facts that were established in the UN report.
>>>>>>> Why am I thinking this guy is an anti-Semite.....
>>>>>> Apparently its because since you're unwilling or incapable of honestly
>>>>>> and directly dealing with the facts at hand, calling a critic an
>>>>>> anti-Semite is an easy cop out.
>>>>> Bad guess.
>>>>> It's because instead of responding to a statement made by an officer
>>>>> in the British Army who isn't Jewish and owes nothing to Israel,
>>>>> you note, as if it's all one needs to know,
>>>>> that the talk was made at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs,
>>>>> that it?s a "Jewish" piece, and
>>>>> that the link is to "an undeniably self-serving Jewish website".
>>>> You've got to be kidding!
>>>> The British Colonel's first sentence gives a direct clue to his abject bias:
>>>> "I will examine the practicalities, challenges and difficulties faced by
>>>> military forces in trying to fight within the provisions of
>>>> international law against an enemy that deliberately and consistently
>>>> flouts international law."
>>>> ...and it continues in that biased vein throughout. NO WAY does it
>>>> effectively address any of Israel's ACTUAL war crimes outlined in the UN
>>>> report. Just the opposite, it makes excuses for them.
>>>> As I suggested earlier, for you to attempt pawn off this piece as in any
>>>> way remotely effective in addressing the actual Israeli war crimes
>>>> documented by the UN, is laughable.
>>> There are indeed "practicalities, challenges and difficulties...".
>>> Too bad you didn't have time to read past the first sentence,
>>> I would have been happy to discuss them with you.
>> That piece is little more than a feeble and failed attempt to discredit
>> an exhaustively detailed 575 page documented outline of the war crimes
>> committed during Gaza conflict.
>>
>> For the third time, it's laughable that you'd consider it as anything
>> remotely adequate to address the actual facts in the Report of the
>> United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict.
>>
>>>>>>>> Colonel RichardKempis an apologist for Israel who personally thinks he
>>>>>>>> can effectively challenge the Goldstone report. He did not... by any
>>>>>>>> major stretch of the imagination.
>>>>>>>> The piece is essentially ignoring the actual specific documented events
>>>>>>>> and making excuses for the blatant, undeniable war crimes committed by
>>>>>>>> the Israeli's that have been outlined in the Report of the United
>>>>>>>> Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict.
>>>>>>>> Readers can see the thoroughly investigated facts for themselves from
>>>>>>>> the Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza
>>>>>>>> Conflict - here:http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsessi......
>>>>>> For readers to see for themselves here's a much more brief summary of
>>>>>> the Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza
>>>>>> Conflict:http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/8D52A795C565E9AF852576...
>>>>>>> Do you take an interest in Goldstone's
>>>>>>> record as a South African Judge?
>>>>>>> He sentenced dozens of Black Africans to death.
>>>>>>> Later, he excused himself, saying,
>>>>>>> "what could I do, I had to uphold the law?"
>>>>>>> No wonder he looks for softs, well paying jobs, *outside* of SA,
>>>>>>> and serves his new master well, hoping for more.
>>>>>>> Watch this video and weep over what has
>>>>>>> become of U.N.s promise to mankind.
>>>>>>> The outrageous response by the chairman of the
>>>>>>> Human Rights Commission should be shared by all
>>>>>>> who cherish human rights.
>>>>>>> http://new.ba-bamail.co.il/View.aspx?emailid=1318&memberid=...
>>>>>> I just watched that video. The young angry arrogant hostile fellow from
>>>>>> the activist group 'United Nations Watch' [which is affiliated with the
>>>>>> American Jewish Committee] who was ranting sounds like I imagine you
>>>>>> would rant. He was way out of line and offensive and made an ass of
>>>>>> himself. And he was rightly admonished by the chairman.
>>>>> John, there's some truth to that, he's no diplomat.
>>>>> But his accusations are damning, and undeniably true.
>>>>> Don't you remember what you said about discrediting the messenger?
>>>> They are an isolated sensationalized example of cherry-picked failings
>>>> that are not at characteristic of the body as whole but fit neatly into
>>>> the agenda of the ranting fellow.
>>> It's not cherry-picking, John.
>>> http://newsblaze.com/story/20100915160929zzzz.nb/top...
>>> "The Council failed to issue a condemnatory resolution on Iran
>>> and on a number of countries with ongoing systematic abuses such as
>>> Belarus, China, Cuba, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Syria.
>>> It continued its disproportionate focus on Israel.".
>>> There's more criticism there, if you take the time to read it.
>> There is *always* criticism and there are *always* ways for you to evade
>> the ACTUAL established facts that you are so desperately trying to avoid
>> *directly* looking at, acknowldeging and addressing.
>>
>>> BTW, this link is fromhttp://www.freedom...
>>>>>> Here, instead of looking at the exhaustively documented facts, Zev [as
>>>>>> is typical of apologists for bad behavior everywhere who can't admit the
>>>>>> disfavorable facts] is desperately attempting to discredit the messenger.
>>>>>> I earlier posted this piece by BBC News...
>>>>>> UN backs Gaza war crimes reporthttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8...
>>>>>> The United Nations overwhelmingly gave its support to the war crimes report.
>>>>> Several of the mortars which landed
>>>>> in Israel today (Wednesday, Sept 15)
>>>>> contained phosphorus.
>>>>> When will Goldstone write up a "War Crimes Report" about it?
>>>> Don't try to change the subject, Zev. It just reinforces my statement
>>>> that you are unwilling or unable to address the specific issue at hand.
>>>> The pervue of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza
>>>> Conflict was limited to the Gaza conflict - as you no doubt know.
>>>> Indeed, the UN report, which you are apparently desperately attempting
>>>> to minimize in import, contains a number of references to Israel's
>>>> illegal use of white phosphorous against the Palestinians during the
>>>> Gaza conflict.
>>> I know that, that's why I mentioned the mortars from Gaza.
>>> I'm not changing the subject at all.
>>> What prevents the UN from taking an interest in it?
>>> My guess is that they know they won't be able to blame Israel.
>> You're establishing a clear pattern here, Zev, of doing *anything* and
>> *everything* to evade and avoid *directly* looking at, acknowldeging and
>> addressing the ACTUAL estblished facts of the specific issues at hand.
>>
>> Israel's decades' long occupation of Palestinian lands, the gross and
>> blatant ongoing human rights abuses and un-Democratic unequal legal
>> treatment Palestinians, the systematic incremental theft of Palestinian
>> lands and the long list of grossly disproportionate war crimes committed
>> by the Israelis against the Palestinians.
>>
>> Here they are again:
>>
>> Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlements -

http://www.vfp143.org/lit/Gaza/Secret_Israeli_database_reve.......
>>
>> Watch one of the ways the Israelis have been stealing land from the
>> Palestinians:
>>
>> Inside Israeli land grabs:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_...
>>
>> = =
>>
>> Israel's documented war crimes in Gaza
>>
>> Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsessi......
>>
>> Since the UN report is 575 pages, here is the much more brief summary:

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/8D52A795C565E9AF852576...
>>
>> And here is the United Nations press release:
>>
>> 'UN mission finds evidence of war crimes by both sides in Gaza conflict'

[snip for brevity]

>> http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?Ne...
>
> None of the members of the team has an intimate knowledge of Gaza,
> none knows Arabic *and* is not known to be biased against Israel,
> 2 of Goldstone's 3 aides are known to be biased against Israel.
> You don't have to be a genius to see which way the cards were stacked.
>
> I hate to respond to your post with a cut-and-paste job
> as I'm doing here, but I don't have the time to do it justice.
> For now, this is the best I can do.
>
> http://www.goldstoner...
> Understanding the Goldstone report
> On September 15, 2009, Judge Richard Goldstone and his Commission
> presented their 575-page Report of the United Nations Fact Finding
> Mission on the Gaza Conflict to its mandating authority, the United
> Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC). From the beginning, observers
> raised serious questions about the Commission?s propriety. These
> involved its mandate and terms of reference, the sponsoring body?s
> domination by dictatorships that regularly abuse human rights in their
> own countries, the biases and prejudices of members of the Commission
> itself. And yet, the report will play a key role in the effort to
> specifically target Israeli troops in both boycott movements and
> lawfare attacks, and more broadly to establish a reigning paradigm of
> international law as applied to 21st century asymmetrical conflicts.
>
>
>
>
> Those of us who have constructed Understanding the Goldstone Report,
> have been following the claims under contention since the events
> themselves almost a year ago, and have read the report in detail. We
> offer a wide range of analysis, from careful examination of specific
> incidents and controversies to broader legal and conceptual issues.
> In so doing, we have come to the following conclusions:
>
>
>
>
> The report violates international standards for inquries, including UN
> rules on fact-finding, replicating earlier UNHRC biased statements.
> The Commission systematically favored witnesses and evidence put
> forward by anti-Israel advocates, and dismissed evidence and testimony
> that would undermine its case.
> The commission relied extensively on mediating agencies, especially UN
> and NGOs, which have a documented hostility to Israel; the report
> reproduces earlier reports and claims from these agencies.
> At the same time, the Commission inexplicably downplayed or ignored
> substantial evidence of Hamas? commission of war crimes, crimes
> against humanity and crimes of terror, including specifically its
> victimization of the Palestinian population by its use of human
> shields, civilian dress for combatants, and combat use of protected
> objects like ambulances, hospitals and mosques.
> The Commission openly denies a presumption of innocence to the
> Israelis accused of crimes (while honoring Hamas? presumed innocence)
> and acknowledges that it made accusations of crimes without proof that
> would stand up in court.
> The report contains numerous gratuitous digressions into issues beyond
> the purview of a fact-finding commission that are inaccurate and
> profoundly hostile to Israel and Jews.
> The Commission distorted legal standards, imposing on Israel standards
> that reverse their generally understood and applied meaning, while
> ignoring important rules of international law that put the onus of
> responsibility on an organization as base, by Goldstone?s own
> standards, as Hamas.
>
>
>
> In all our analyses and conclusions, we have adhered to principles of
> empirical evidence and consistent reasoning. Since the skeptical
> reader might well accuse us of making up our mind in advance, we
> emphasize that one should not agree or disagree with us because of how
> one feels about Israel or the Palestinians, but because of the
> evidence. We invite readers to examine our arguments without
> prejudice, make up their own minds and, where they see problems,
> challenge our arguments. Sweeping and inflammatory rhetoric not
> welcome.
>
>
>
>
>
> If you find even a portion of what we argue to have merit, you may be
> interested in some further questions that these observations raise:
>
>
>
>
> How could a Judge with Goldstone's reputation have presided over such
> a Commission?
> What are the long-term consequences of such judgments on the
> containment or encouragement of future war crimes in asymmetrical wars
> like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
> What are the mediated paths by which we receive our information about
> the Arab-Israeli conflict?
> If Goldstone's approach is misguided, how should people of good will,
> concerned for both justice and humanity, proceed in dealing with
> asymmetrical warfare?
>
>
>
> We welcome both considered and reasoned comment and submissions of
> essays to the discussion. It is our belief that the most interesting
> discussions of Goldstone will take place in cyberspace, in the new and
> raucus ?City of Letters? ? the blogosphere.

Good Lord!

http://www.goldstoner... was put together by a group of mostly
Jewish activist bloggers who are laughably obvious in their
*DEDICATED* bias toward Israel.

Readers can see the list of these bloggers and their special Jewish
interests here: http://www.goldstoner...about-us

---

Like I''ve said a number of times already: You're establishing a clear
pattern here, Zev, of doing *ANYTHING* and *EVERYTHING* to evade and
avoid *DIRECTLY* looking at, acknowldeging and addressing the ACTUAL
estblished facts of the specific issues at hand.

Those are specifically:

Israel's decades' long occupation of Palestinian lands, the gross and
blatant ongoing human rights abuses and un-Democratic unequal legal
treatment Palestinians, the systematic incremental theft of Palestinian
lands and the long list of grossly disproportionate war crimes committed
by the Israelis against the Palestinians.

Here they are again:

Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlements -
http://www.vfp143.org/lit/Gaza/Secret_Israeli_database_reve...xtent_of_illegal_settlement.pdf.

Watch one of the ways the Israelis have been stealing land from the
Palestinians:

Inside Israeli land grabs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_...

= =

Israel's documented war crimes in Gaza

Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsessi...UNFFMGC_Report.pdf

Since the UN report is 575 pages, here is the much more brief summary:
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/8D52A795C565E9AF852576...

And here is the United Nations press release:

'UN mission finds evidence of war crimes by both sides in Gaza conflict'
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?Ne...

comp.lang.ruby

see raw xml in soap4r

Raymond O'connor

NAKAMURA, Hiroshi

Raymond O'connor

NAKAMURA, Hiroshi

Zev

John Manning

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