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Re: I need serious help!

seebs

7/14/2007 1:47:00 AM

In message <a344c00de0aeb6ae32d649b1accdc15a@ruby-forum.com>, Joe Wiltrout writes:
>Why's
>Guide lost me at about chapter 3. The best thing I'v done in Ruby is
>make the thingy reconize a sandwich as Ham, Turkey, Cheese. So, could
>someone inform me if this is normal to not understand any of this stuff
>at all?

To put it in perspective, I can program fluently in something like a dozen
programming languages, and I found why's guide utterly impenetrable; in fact,
it put me off Ruby until I got a recommendation that led me to find a book
written in a slightly more conventional style. Different people may have
wildly different learning styles.

But it is fairly normal not to understand anything at all when you are just
starting out in a new language. I liked Chris Pine's guide, which is also
available online, and/or the expanded form which is a paperback book.

>Because I'm sure the programming team at Blizzard started out
>alot better than me.

Well, certainly, by the time they were working there, yeah. :)

-s
10 Answers

Joe Wiltrout

7/14/2007 1:56:00 AM

0

unknown wrote:
> In message <a344c00de0aeb6ae32d649b1accdc15a@ruby-forum.com>, Joe
> Wiltrout writes:
>>Why's
>>Guide lost me at about chapter 3. The best thing I'v done in Ruby is
>>make the thingy reconize a sandwich as Ham, Turkey, Cheese. So, could
>>someone inform me if this is normal to not understand any of this stuff
>>at all?
>
> To put it in perspective, I can program fluently in something like a
> dozen
> programming languages, and I found why's guide utterly impenetrable; in
> fact,
> it put me off Ruby until I got a recommendation that led me to find a
> book
> written in a slightly more conventional style. Different people may
> have
> wildly different learning styles.
>
> But it is fairly normal not to understand anything at all when you are
> just
> starting out in a new language. I liked Chris Pine's guide, which is
> also
> available online, and/or the expanded form which is a paperback book.
>
>>Because I'm sure the programming team at Blizzard started out
>>alot better than me.
>
> Well, certainly, by the time they were working there, yeah. :)

No. Not even by the time they were working there. Everyone of em
certainly understood this shit much better than I do. Or they would have
given up too. And what languages does Chris Pines book teach? Because
I'v decided to screw Ruby, because it hasnt helped at all. And if
everyone is so professional and talented, why can't they give me
straight forward help? You guys are like Jedi or bad teachers. Either be
really vague, or kick me in the ass and tell me to do something else.
>
> -s


--
Posted via http://www.ruby-....

Craig Johnson

7/14/2007 2:04:00 AM

0

You have one other choice too Joe...

Hire someone to make the game for you now---maybe he comes
cheap because you share ownership---and you learn while you both do...

That lets you start---let's your idea get legs...and you learn too...

cj:)

-----Original Message-----
From: list-bounce@example.com [mailto:list-bounce@example.com] On Behalf Of
Joe Wiltrout
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 7:56 PM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: I need serious help!

unknown wrote:
> In message <a344c00de0aeb6ae32d649b1accdc15a@ruby-forum.com>, Joe
> Wiltrout writes:
>>Why's
>>Guide lost me at about chapter 3. The best thing I'v done in Ruby is
>>make the thingy reconize a sandwich as Ham, Turkey, Cheese. So, could
>>someone inform me if this is normal to not understand any of this stuff
>>at all?
>
> To put it in perspective, I can program fluently in something like a
> dozen
> programming languages, and I found why's guide utterly impenetrable; in
> fact,
> it put me off Ruby until I got a recommendation that led me to find a
> book
> written in a slightly more conventional style. Different people may
> have
> wildly different learning styles.
>
> But it is fairly normal not to understand anything at all when you are
> just
> starting out in a new language. I liked Chris Pine's guide, which is
> also
> available online, and/or the expanded form which is a paperback book.
>
>>Because I'm sure the programming team at Blizzard started out
>>alot better than me.
>
> Well, certainly, by the time they were working there, yeah. :)

No. Not even by the time they were working there. Everyone of em
certainly understood this shit much better than I do. Or they would have
given up too. And what languages does Chris Pines book teach? Because
I'v decided to screw Ruby, because it hasnt helped at all. And if
everyone is so professional and talented, why can't they give me
straight forward help? You guys are like Jedi or bad teachers. Either be
really vague, or kick me in the ass and tell me to do something else.
>
> -s


--
Posted via http://www.ruby-....

Joe Wiltrout

7/14/2007 2:27:00 AM

0

Felix Windt wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>Guide lost me at about chapter 3. The best thing I'v done
>> recommendation
>> >>better than me.
>> vague, or kick me in the ass and tell me to do something else.
>> >
>> > -s
>>
>>
>> --
>> Posted via http://www.ruby-....
>>
>
>
> The problem is that you're asking for something impossible.
>
> That's made worse by the fact that no matter how many arguments are
> presented to you, you refuse to see it as such.
>
> Maybe - and I'm just inviting you to do this, not telling you to do this
> -
> you might want to consider the possibility that the people you received
> advice from were not bad teachers, but that you are a bad student.
>
> Felix

Your right. I don't see any good advice. Because people aren't giving me
advice. They are telling me to code Hello World for years and years.
Problem is, how does that help? It doesn't. It doesn't code in a weapon,
it doesn't make a boat move, it doesn't do anything at all. It makes
your computer re-print Hello World. I'v done the Hello World thing 60
times. I counted. And guess what? Im nowhere closer to making a game.
And as for the Stool building to House building, there's a great
difference between building stools and building houses. I built several
stools, chairs, tables, chests, and boxes. Just wood, nails, hammer, and
finish. And for some things, hinges, locks, and cushions. But houses
have electric things to install, tiling, carpet, cieling fans, etc to
put in. The methods are completely different. And I can't say that any
person on this thread was actually a "teacher" because nobody taught me
anything. They told me to learn things. A teacher doesn't say Go buy
this book and read it, then write 2+5
100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
times and you will learn how to multiply. A teacher would explain how
you get the answer to 2+5. Then the teacher would explain how you apply
the same principles to multiplying, then you would learn algebra,
physics, calculus, etc. And how do you know Rome wasn't built in a day?
For all you know, it could have been built in 10 seconds flat. No one
can prove anything. It's a fact.


--
Posted via http://www.ruby-....

Gregory Brown

7/14/2007 2:41:00 AM

0

On 7/13/07, Joe Wiltrout <wiltroutja@hotmail.com> wrote:
> And I can't say that any
> person on this thread was actually a "teacher" because nobody taught me
> anything. They told me to learn things. A teacher doesn't say Go buy
> this book and read it, then write 2+5

Those who expect to be "taught', in my opinion, will never learn.

MenTaLguY

7/14/2007 2:49:00 AM

0

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:27:06 +0900, Joe Wiltrout <wiltroutja@hotmail.com> wrote:
> And how do you know Rome wasn't built in a day? For all you know, it could
> have been built in 10 seconds flat. No one can prove anything. It's a fact.

If you can't (at least informally) prove a logical proposition, you've
got no hope as a programmer.

-mental

Gregory Brown

7/14/2007 3:07:00 AM

0

On 7/13/07, Craig Johnson <cjsiam@msn.com> wrote:
> Joe, don't be impatient and ignorant--it's just annoying to read.
> You are on a ruby language help forum.
> these people know what they are talking about.
>
> what is it about your "wisdom" that makes you think you are right, and
> they are wrong. I suspect you're what 18-22? maybe younger?

Age doesn't mean anything, I generally dislike when people bring it up
as a measure of skill or wisdom. For the record, I am 21, and I look
up to a few well known Rubyists that are 16-18yrs old. :)

Joe is actually just acting like a classic jerk, it has nothing to do with age.

Chris Carter

7/14/2007 3:13:00 AM

0

On 7/13/07, Joe Wiltrout <wiltroutja@hotmail.com> wrote:

Over these last two days, some of the best programmers I know have
given you some great advice. I am 15, I know what it is like to want
to learn how to make a game in a day. let me tell you, It's not
possible. You need to learn how to program first. The tutorials may
all start with Hello, World, but then you aren't bothering to finish
one. They get complex, they teach you the structures you need to know
eventually. But you must start small. One you know those basic
theories, you can move on to more complex game theories. After that
you can start 3d programming. It will take you years. C++ will be
just as bad, it's even lower level. Work through Pine's book, or
_why's. Then you can try making a text adventure. You might know
enough for that. Then you can start learning mroe advanced things,
like ruby-gosu or SDL. It will take time, it will be tedious, it will
suck. You are going to have to deal with it.

Want help writing a MMORPG. You will need a protocol. Creating one
is pretty easy with ragel (http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~thurs...,
a state machine compiler) and EventMachine
(http://rubyforge.org/projects/ev..., an evented socket
server). You will need a graphics engine (http://www.l...,
SDL). Probably a database (http://www.postg...) and a ton of
code, possibly in multiple languages (Ruby, C, Lua). Once you
understand what each of these components does, and why you might need
them, and how they work, you can move on to a real game.

Good Luck. If you have a real code-based question, don't hesitate to
ask the list. But google around first.


--
Chris Carter
concentrationstudios.com
brynmawrcs.com

Bill Kelly

7/14/2007 3:26:00 AM

0


From: "Chris Carter" <cdcarter@gmail.com>
>
> Over these last two days, some of the best programmers I know have
> given you some great advice. I am 15, I know what it is like to want
> to learn how to make a game in a day. let me tell you, It's not
> possible. You need to learn how to program first. The tutorials may
> all start with Hello, World, but then you aren't bothering to finish
> one. They get complex, they teach you the structures you need to know
> eventually. But you must start small. One you know those basic
> theories, you can move on to more complex game theories. After that
> you can start 3d programming. It will take you years. C++ will be
> just as bad, it's even lower level. Work through Pine's book, or
> _why's. Then you can try making a text adventure. You might know
> enough for that. Then you can start learning mroe advanced things,
> like ruby-gosu or SDL. It will take time, it will be tedious, it will
> suck. You are going to have to deal with it.

Hi Chris,

Although I agree in general and in principle with everything
you've said above, I wondered from Joe's frustrated comments
that he might benefit from actually seeing visual results on
screen ASAP.

To that end, I figured, with probably 5 to 10 lines of ruby
code in a framework like Gosu, he could have a couple of
pirate sprites bouncing around the screen.

Maybe actually seeing these few lines of code produce a
visual result he can connect with as a concrete step toward
his goal, might get him past the "what is Hello World good
for" block.

Anyway, I may totally be wrong. But that was my reasoning
for posting the Gosu links.


Regards,

Bill

Gregory Brown

7/14/2007 3:32:00 AM

0

On 7/13/07, Bill Kelly <billk@cts.com> wrote:

> Although I agree in general and in principle with everything
> you've said above, I wondered from Joe's frustrated comments
> that he might benefit from actually seeing visual results on
> screen ASAP.

I'm totally out of the loop with the gaming community, but you're
probably right on this. Instead of trying to go from the ground up, I
wonder if a good approach would be to find a highly scriptable game
with a friendly modding community.

This seems to me like it'd let someone get their feet wet without
knowing a ton of theory, and work with powerful engines. I've never
actually built non-trivial mods before though, so I'm not sure if
that's good advice or not.

Trevor Squires

7/14/2007 5:37:00 AM

0

Joe,

take a look below for my comments, plus something I found that you
might be interested in.

On 13-Jul-07, at 7:27 PM, Joe Wiltrout wrote:

> Your right. I don't see any good advice. Because people aren't
> giving me
> advice. They are telling me to code Hello World for years and years.
> Problem is, how does that help? It doesn't. It doesn't code in a
> weapon,
> it doesn't make a boat move, it doesn't do anything at all. It makes
> your computer re-print Hello World. I'v done the Hello World thing 60
>

Ever see "The Karate Kid"? Get it out on DVD if you haven't (not any
of the sequels, the original). You'll think it sucks, but that's okay.

Once you've seen it, repeat this phrase: wax on, wax off

Because that's why you're being told all this 'useless' stuff. A
programmer basically solves and endless stream of little puzzles and
you need to know how to solve the easy puzzles before you have any
hope of solving the harder ones.

It's totally understandable for you to be frustrated with this advice
- you don't currently understand enough about programming to see the
value in the advice you're being given. One day you *will*
understand and I assure you that you too, will dispense that very
same advice to others. Because it's actually good advice.

But right now I'm going to give you slightly different advice:

Don't learn to program games by starting with a general purpose
programming language. Start with a language and/or framework that is
specifically geared up for teaching programming *through* writing games.

With that in mind, I searched around google for you and came up with
this:

http://www.kidsprogramminglan... - Don't be put off by 'kids'
in the title. You want to write a game. It looks like this language/
environment will start you on that path.

By the time you outgrow that language you'll understand enough about
programming to hit the ground running when learning other (perhaps
more 'powerful') programming languages.

But a word of warning - you're *always* going to be confused by new
languages to some degree. I've been doing this 20 years and just
last week I was stumped by one of the first examples in a book about
a new language I'm learning (erlang):

sum([H|T]) -> H + sum(T);
sum([]) -> 0.

"Oh my god! Won't that blow the stack?" - well, I *think* it's okay
because of something called 'tail-recursion' - but like you, I don't
know what I don't know.

It's a wild ride, and totally worth it.

Good luck,
Trevor