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comp.lang.ruby

looking for some feedback about Certification

pat eyler

11/10/2006 9:32:00 PM

Aaah, nothing like a good controversial topic to stir up a holy war
for the weekend.

I've posted two different requests for feedback on a project over at my blog:

http://on-ruby.bl.../2006/11/ruby-certification-is-it-wor...
http://on-ruby.bl.../2006/11/ruby-certification-what-shou...

They boil down to this: I've been asked to help a university put together a
continuing education program to teach Ruby. It will be a three course
series and will end with a Ruby Certification for the students completing
it. I'd like to collect your opinions about two things:
1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?
2) What should be in a program like this?

I'd like to collect the feedback in blog comments (easier to refer
to them, etc.), but I realize that just bringing it up here is liable to
cause a mailstrom of emails, news posts, etc. -- please, at least
try to keep it civil if you're going to reply here (for whatever value
of here is appropriate for the way you consume ruby-talk)


I'll now slink away and hide in the corner for a bit.

--
thanks,
-pate
-------------------------
http://on-ruby.bl...
36 Answers

Gustav - Railist

11/10/2006 9:52:00 PM

0

pat eyler wrote:
> Aaah, nothing like a good controversial topic to stir up a holy war
> for the weekend.
>
> I've posted two different requests for feedback on a project over at
> my blog:
>
> http://on-ruby.blogspot.com/2006/11/ruby-certification-is-it-wor...
>
> http://on-ruby.blogspot.com/2006/11/ruby-certification-what-shou...
>
>
> They boil down to this: I've been asked to help a university put
> together a
> continuing education program to teach Ruby. It will be a three course
> series and will end with a Ruby Certification for the students completing
> it. I'd like to collect your opinions about two things:
> 1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?
> 2) What should be in a program like this?
>
> I'd like to collect the feedback in blog comments (easier to refer
> to them, etc.), but I realize that just bringing it up here is liable to
> cause a mailstrom of emails, news posts, etc. -- please, at least
> try to keep it civil if you're going to reply here (for whatever value
> of here is appropriate for the way you consume ruby-talk)
>
>
> I'll now slink away and hide in the corner for a bit.
>
lol

First of all, I'm in no means a ruby expert!

1) I think it's probably a good idea. I can only imagine that having
something legitimate-looking that tells prospective employers that
you've gone through the trouble of learning a non-mainstream (compared
to Java) language like Ruby will impress them and increase your chances
of getting a job? I'm still in high school though, so others will have
more experience with this kind of thing.

2) I'd imagine that someone who wants to write something like 'certified
rubyist' behind his name should at the very least be able to comprehend
and implement the ruby basics as covered in eg. Chris Pine's Learning to
Program and Why's Guide (comprehend the non-fictional parts anyway).

Just my 2c worth.

Cheery-o
Gustav Paul
gustav@rails.co.za

Patrick Hurley

11/10/2006 10:30:00 PM

0

On 11/10/06, Gustav Paul <gustav@rails.co.za> wrote:
> pat eyler wrote:
> > 1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?

With the growing size of the Ruby community (and demand for Ruby
programmers) there will undoubtedly be programs of this sort. Of
course having said that, I personally consider certifications programs
(especially for programming languages) one of the worst hiring metrics
available. If you want to find a good programmer, looking for a
language specific certificate is a terrible mistake.

> > 2) What should be in a program like this?

A few questions first:

1. Intended audience (experienced programmers, web designers, career
switching accountants)?

2. With or without Rails (is this web focused or general Ruby)?

3. You mentioned 3 courses, how long is each course?

pth

Joel VanderWerf

11/10/2006 10:48:00 PM

0

Patrick Hurley wrote:
> On 11/10/06, Gustav Paul <gustav@rails.co.za> wrote:
>> pat eyler wrote:
>> > 1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?
>
> With the growing size of the Ruby community (and demand for Ruby
> programmers) there will undoubtedly be programs of this sort. Of
> course having said that, I personally consider certifications programs
> (especially for programming languages) one of the worst hiring metrics
> available. If you want to find a good programmer, looking for a
> language specific certificate is a terrible mistake.

What about assigning each student to make contributions to ruby and to
the community, so that they have something concrete and visible to point
to? For example:

- write std lib docs

- write tests for std libs

- write a brief article or blog entry, with newbies in mind as the readers

- contact a project maintainer (on rubyforge for example) and ask for a
suitable task (not SoC level, but not trivial, either)

--
vjoel : Joel VanderWerf : path berkeley edu : 510 665 3407

Gregory Brown

11/10/2006 10:54:00 PM

0

On 11/10/06, Joel VanderWerf <vjoel@path.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Patrick Hurley wrote:
> > On 11/10/06, Gustav Paul <gustav@rails.co.za> wrote:
> >> pat eyler wrote:
> >> > 1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?
> >
> > With the growing size of the Ruby community (and demand for Ruby
> > programmers) there will undoubtedly be programs of this sort. Of
> > course having said that, I personally consider certifications programs
> > (especially for programming languages) one of the worst hiring metrics
> > available. If you want to find a good programmer, looking for a
> > language specific certificate is a terrible mistake.
>
> What about assigning each student to make contributions to ruby and to
> the community, so that they have something concrete and visible to point
> to? For example:
>
> - write std lib docs
>
> - write tests for std libs
>
> - write a brief article or blog entry, with newbies in mind as the readers
>
> - contact a project maintainer (on rubyforge for example) and ask for a
> suitable task (not SoC level, but not trivial, either)

I think this sort of metric would be much more meaningful than a
standardized test. You could call it like a 'practical applications
lab' or something of the like, and make it a requirement for the
course.

pat eyler

11/10/2006 11:31:00 PM

0

I've tried to respond on my blog to all the points made so far.
Thanks for the feedback so far (even if it's just telling me that
certifications are the spawn of the devil).

On 11/10/06, Joel VanderWerf <vjoel@path.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Patrick Hurley wrote:
> > On 11/10/06, Gustav Paul <gustav@rails.co.za> wrote:
> >> pat eyler wrote:
> >> > 1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?
> >
> > With the growing size of the Ruby community (and demand for Ruby
> > programmers) there will undoubtedly be programs of this sort. Of
> > course having said that, I personally consider certifications programs
> > (especially for programming languages) one of the worst hiring metrics
> > available. If you want to find a good programmer, looking for a
> > language specific certificate is a terrible mistake.
>
> What about assigning each student to make contributions to ruby and to
> the community, so that they have something concrete and visible to point
> to? For example:
>
> - write std lib docs
>
> - write tests for std libs
>
> - write a brief article or blog entry, with newbies in mind as the readers
>
> - contact a project maintainer (on rubyforge for example) and ask for a
> suitable task (not SoC level, but not trivial, either)
>
> --
> vjoel : Joel VanderWerf : path berkeley edu : 510 665 3407
>
>


--
thanks,
-pate
-------------------------
http://on-ruby.bl...

James Britt

11/11/2006 1:33:00 AM

0


> 1) I think it's probably a good idea. I can only imagine that having
> something legitimate-looking that tells prospective employers that
> you've gone through the trouble of learning a non-mainstream (compared
> to Java) language like Ruby will impress them and increase your chances
> of getting a job?

I have a hard time believing that someone who appreciates Ruby will want
a job where a such a certificate is impressive.


> 2) I'd imagine that someone who wants to write something like 'certified
> rubyist' behind his name should at the very least be able to comprehend
> and implement the ruby basics as covered in eg. Chris Pine's Learning to
> Program and Why's Guide (comprehend the non-fictional parts anyway).
>

Someone who wants to write something like "Certified Rubyist" behind his
or her name should not be coding in Ruby. Probably should not be coding
at all.



--
James Britt

http://web2.0val... - We're the Dot in Web 2.0
http://www.... - Hacking in the Desert
http://www.jame... - Playing with Better Toys

Paul Lutus

11/11/2006 1:34:00 AM

0

pat eyler wrote:

/ ... snipping all but the meat ...

> I'd like to collect the feedback in blog comments (easier to refer
> to them, etc.), but I realize that just bringing it up here is liable to
> cause a mailstrom ...

Wow! And I was there when it happened! A totally new word, and a rather nice
one. "Mailstrom." Too bad you can't patent words, you might become rich.

I am not going to ask whether this arose form a typo, or represents a
misspelling of "maelstrom", or some third possibility. It doesn't really
matter. I was present at a birth. :)

> I'll now slink away and hide in the corner for a bit.

Actually, you should gloat. You may not realize what you've done. Not
everyone gets to coin a new word.

(long pause) ... rats. I see from a Google search that it isn't original.
It's not common, but it's not original.

Oh well.

--
Paul Lutus
http://www.ara...

James Britt

11/11/2006 1:35:00 AM

0

Joel VanderWerf wrote:
> Patrick Hurley wrote:
>
>> On 11/10/06, Gustav Paul <gustav@rails.co.za> wrote:
>>
>>> pat eyler wrote:
>>> > 1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?
>>
>>
>> With the growing size of the Ruby community (and demand for Ruby
>> programmers) there will undoubtedly be programs of this sort. Of
>> course having said that, I personally consider certifications programs
>> (especially for programming languages) one of the worst hiring metrics
>> available. If you want to find a good programmer, looking for a
>> language specific certificate is a terrible mistake.
>
>
> What about assigning each student to make contributions to ruby and to
> the community, so that they have something concrete and visible to point
> to? For example:
>
> - write std lib docs

Hey, what a great idea!
>
> - write tests for std libs


This, too.



--
James Britt

http://web2.0val... - We're the Dot in Web 2.0
http://www.... - Hacking in the Desert
http://www.jame... - Playing with Better Toys

dblack

11/11/2006 1:57:00 AM

0

Giles Bowkett

11/11/2006 2:34:00 AM

0

Certification isn't particularly useful in terms of finding a job. I
got a couple certifications at one point, they were utterly useless as
far as finding work. However, they were very useful in the sense of
learning the technologies in pretty extensive detail. If the exam
covers a lot of ground and costs a lot of money, your best option is
to learn the material thoroughly before you take it.

However, I've actually considered taking my certifications **off** my
resume because I don't want the best type of employer thinking, "Oh,
he's **that** kind of programmer." I've also grown very skeptical of
the technologies I got certified in. There are some certification
exams which put a spotlight on the design flaws in their subject
matter.

That being said, I had a look at your blog entries, and if I
understand correctly, the system is three courses, each one pass/fail,
with a certificate awarded at the end, and the question is what
material to cover. So, I'd say currying, continuations, and compiler
internals. The three Cs. Extra credit if you can explain why Stefan
Kaes used abstract syntax trees to optimize Rails performance.

(Just kidding.)

--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesg...