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"Good Ideas, Through the Looking Glass"

Rich Morin

10/16/2006 12:59:00 AM

Some folks here might find this interesting:

Abstract

An entire potpourri of ideas is listed from the past
decades of Computer Science and Computer Technology.
Widely acclaimed at their time, many have lost in
splendor and brilliance under today's critical
scrutiny. We try to find reasons. Some of the ideas
are almost forgotten. But we believe that they are
worth recalling, not the least because one must try
to learn from the past, be it for the sake of progress,
intellectual stimulation, or fun.

http://www.cs.inf.ethz.ch/~wirth/Articles/GoodIdeas_o...
"Good Ideas, Through the Looking Glass"
Niklaus Wirth

-r
--
http://www.cf... Rich Morin
http://www.cf.../resume rdm@cfcl.com
http://www.cf.../weblog +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

5 Answers

Rich Morin

10/16/2006 6:18:00 AM

0

FYI, here is a quote which seems relevant to Ruby:

Although the possibility of program modification at
run-time was heralded as one of the great consequences
of John von Neumann's profound idea of storing
program and data in the same memory, it quickly turned
out to enable a dangerous technique and to constitute an
unlimited source of pitfalls. Program code must remain
untouched, if the search for errors was not to become a
nightmae. Program's self-modification was recognized as
an extremely bad idea.
--
http://www.cf... Rich Morin
http://www.cf.../resume rdm@cfcl.com
http://www.cf.../weblog +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

Jeff Schwab

10/16/2006 12:38:00 PM

0

Rich Morin wrote:
> FYI, here is a quote which seems relevant to Ruby:
>
> Although the possibility of program modification at
> run-time was heralded as one of the great consequences
> of John von Neumann's profound idea of storing
> program and data in the same memory, it quickly turned
> out to enable a dangerous technique and to constitute an
> unlimited source of pitfalls. Program code must remain
> untouched, if the search for errors was not to become a
> nightmae. Program's self-modification was recognized as
> an extremely bad idea.

That's a gross misinterpretation of the facts. Not on your part --
thanks for posting something interesting -- but on the part of many
self-styled pundits. The fact that self-modifying code has its own set
of problems doesn't meant that the code should not be pursued at all,
any more than we should have stopped coding altogether the first time we
realized there were such things as bugs.

Not only does self-modifying code still offer the benefits originally
envisioned, but those benefits are finally being realized. The Java
HotSpot VM is a good example of real-world use. When we are working
with high-level languages to write portable code, we usually don't mind
if the machine code changes on the fly according to provably valid rules.

Morton Goldberg

10/16/2006 2:16:00 PM

0


On Oct 16, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Jeffrey Schwab wrote:

> Rich Morin wrote:
>> FYI, here is a quote which seems relevant to Ruby:
>> Although the possibility of program modification at
>> run-time was heralded as one of the great consequences
>> of John von Neumann's profound idea of storing
>> program and data in the same memory, it quickly turned
>> out to enable a dangerous technique and to constitute an
>> unlimited source of pitfalls. Program code must remain
>> untouched, if the search for errors was not to become a
>> nightmae. Program's self-modification was recognized as
>> an extremely bad idea.
>
> That's a gross misinterpretation of the facts. Not on your part --
> thanks for posting something interesting -- but on the part of many
> self-styled pundits. The fact that self-modifying code has its own
> set of problems doesn't meant that the code should not be pursued
> at all, any more than we should have stopped coding altogether the
> first time we realized there were such things as bugs.
>
> Not only does self-modifying code still offer the benefits
> originally envisioned, but those benefits are finally being
> realized. The Java HotSpot VM is a good example of real-world
> use. When we are working with high-level languages to write
> portable code, we usually don't mind if the machine code changes on
> the fly according to provably valid rules.

Yes, indeed.

Wirth's criticism is probably valid in the context of developing code
for tax accountants. But in the context of developing code intended
to pass the Turing test, his criticism is completely fatuous. A well-
know AI researcher once said something like: if our programs can't
modify themselves, then they will never do anything very interesting.
Was is Shank? Was it Minsky? I can't remember.

Regards, Morton

jmg3000

10/16/2006 3:14:00 PM

0

On 10/16/06, Morton Goldberg <m_goldberg@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> [snip] A well-
> know AI researcher once said something like: if our programs can't
> modify themselves, then they will never do anything very interesting.
> Was is Shank? Was it Minsky? I can't remember.

Not that it's what you're thinking of, but I read "The Story of Mel" a
long while back ( http://www.pbm.com/~lindah... ), and recall
this quote:

|
| I had been hired to write a Fortran compiler for this new marvel and
| Mel was my guide to its wonders. Mel didn't approve of compilers.
|
| "If a program can't rewrite its own code," he asked, "what good is it?"
|

Fun little read, btw, though quite off-topic here.

---John

Martin Coxall

10/16/2006 3:18:00 PM

0

> | I had been hired to write a Fortran compiler for this new marvel and
> | Mel was my guide to its wonders. Mel didn't approve of compilers.
> |
> | "If a program can't rewrite its own code," he asked, "what good is it?"
> |
>
> Fun little read, btw, though quite off-topic here.

Metaprogramming is the new COME FROM statement.

;p

Martin