Herr Oberst
10/22/2009 5:53:00 PM
On Oct 22, 1:47?pm, Herr Oberst <tomkrat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 22, 1:26 pm, Bill Swears <wswe...@gci.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Alma Hromic Deckert wrote:
> > > On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:48:23 -0700 (PDT), Herr Oberst
> > > <tomkrat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Yes, patriotism, another kind of irrational belief.
>
> > > Taken to extremes, yes - "patriotism is the last refuge of the
> > > scoundrel", as has been said before, and by more quotable people than
> > > me.
>
> > > But it absolutely amazes me that a country which is so bent on hanging
> > > a flag on every flagpole, real or metaphorical - be it one's home, a
> > > hospital, a used car dealership, a bumper sticker on one's car or a
> > > pin on one's own lapel - can come down so hard on OTHER nations when
> > > someone from them expresses a love for their country. Americans
> > > invented neither the flag nor the idea of patriotism, and in Russia
> > > there are people who were willing to fight and die for that land long
> > > before America was a nation.
>
> > Alma,
>
> > Tom calls patriotism an irrational belief, but he doesn't disapprove of
> > patriotism... In fact, he's convinced that it is more important to
> > civilization than religion or family.
>
> > On the other side, patriotism works much as many religions. If I am a
> > patriotic American, I know that patriots from all other countries are
> > wrong - morally or emotionally misaligned, or they would agree with me
> > that my country is better than theirs. And I have proof.
>
> > Bill
> > --
> > Living on the polemic may be temporarily satisfying, but it will raise
> > your blood-pressure, and gives you tunnel vision.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> That's simplistic, narrow minded, and wrong, Bill. ?There is no
> necessary conflict between believing that a patriotic society is good
> for you and yours, and believing that a patriotic society is also good
> for them and theirs. ?Nor is there any particularly good reason to
> believe that even your enemy in war is morally or emotionally wrong
> for loving his own country and people, or trying to do his best by
> them. ?To quote Twain: "Patriotism is Patriotism. Calling it
> Fanaticism cannot degrade it; nothing can degrade it. Even though it
> be a political mistake, and a thousand times a political mistake, that
> does not affect it; it is honorable, always honorable, always noble -
> and privileged to hold its head up and look the nations in the face."
>
> In a way, your words remind me of that silly Donovan song from the
> 60s, Universal Soldier. ?"And he thinks we'll put an end to war this
> way." ?Well, no we don't, and it's a measure of how narrow minded,
> misinformed, and even outright stupid, the left's view of the right is
> that they could - even in gest and that wasn't in jest - attribute
> such a silly sentiment to us. ?We don't think war can be put an end
> to, in that way or any other.
>
> No, when I say it's irrational it's because the rational, self-
> interested, default states of Man, the individual, are "Me" and "Mine"
> - even Kos admits as much - while patriotism is about "us" and
> "ours." ?It's the irrationality that keeps the soldier on the firing
> line when reason tells him to flee and let the others be killed
> instead. ?It's emotional, but no less real for that.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
And I can't frakking believe I just spelled jest with a g, while
spelling it properly, in the same clause.
Senility is a bitch.