Pieter
10/11/2009 9:20:00 PM
"expires" <expires.2009sep31.v8i@maxi-bayern.de> schreef in bericht
news:harg6n$gr9$1@svr7.m-online.net...
> On Sun Oct 11 2009 00:45:48 GMT+0200
> Pieter <hrdouwes@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>> "expires" <expires.2009sep31.v8i@maxi-bayern.de> schreef in bericht
>> news:haprkt$94o$1@svr7.m-online.net...
>>> On Sat Oct 10 2009 12:03:32 GMT+0200
>>> Pieter <hrdouwes@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>>>> "expires" <expires.2009sep31.v8i@maxi-bayern.de> schreef in bericht
>>>> news:haotre$cti$1@svr7.m-online.net...
>>>>> On Fri Oct 09 2009 00:57:41 GMT+0200
>>>>> Pieter <hrdouwes@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>>>>>> Since projection makes perception,
>>>>>> the mind which is projecting illusions
>>>>>> as if they were real must be healed.
>>>>>> The sick mind thinks that what it
>>>>>> perceives as outside itself IS outside
>>>>>> itself and has nothing to do with it. So
>>>>>> it has to learn that this "outside world"
>>>>>> which it perceives nevertheless is its
>>>>>> own projection. - This is not about
>>>>>> physical matter (which is nothing in
>>>>>> or of itself), but any meaning the mind
>>>>>> has given to what it sees. Of course:
>>>>>> everyone can stop wanting to be sick
>>>>>> (separated); that is a pre-requisite for
>>>>>> the healing process to occur.
>>>>> Are you, Pieter, "projecting illusions"?
>>>>> How does one, you for example, project reality?
>>>> That is what ACIM is about.
>>>> "Teach only love, for that is what you are."
>>>>
>>>>> Isn't it so, that *all* projections/perceptions
>>>>> are nothing other than illusions?
>>>> The question is unanswerable, since
>>>> you couple projection with perception.
>>>> Listen to what ACIM has to say on projection:
>>>>
>>>> "Projection is a fundamental law of the mind, and therefore
>>>> one which ALWAYS operates. It is the law by which you
>>>> create and were created. It is the law which unifies the
>>>> Kingdom and keeps it in the mind of God. To the ego, the
>>>> law is perceived as a way of getting RID of something it
>>>> does NOT want. To the Holy Spirit, it is the fundamental
>>>> law of sharing, by which you give what you value in order
>>>> to keep it in your OWN minds. Projection to the Holy Spirit
>>>> is the law of extension. To the ego, it is the law of deprivation.
>>>> It therefore produces abundance or scarcity, depending on
>>>> how you choose to apply it."
>>> So, according to you/ACIM, I am ultimately nothing other
>>> than a projection that can do nothing other than com-
>>> pulsively project?
>>
>> A physical example:
>> The sun projects warmth and light.
>> Is that a "task" it has to fulfill?
>> No: it just is its nature,
>> its freedom, to do that.
>
> Bad example/analogy, or do you think
> "the sun" can experience pain or fear?
Examples always fall short,
especially if used as they were not meant.
>>> What if I just want to be without
>>> projecting (what I'm inclined to call imagining) any-
>>> thing at all, not love, no abundance, no pain, no fear.
>>> Do I not have the unconditional freedom of will to project
>>> nothing at all? To just be! To just watch!
>>
>> This sounds to me like trying to live
>> without breathing. If we are created
>> love, then it is natural to extend it.
>> Love cannot be contained.
>
> Another bad/too physical (breathing) example/analogy.
> And if we are love which "cannot be contained", then
> what's the/your fuss about. If it's so inevitable,
> so unstoppable, why bother to contradict me at all?
So you think I am contradicting you.
ACIM says that because of the separation
we think we are what we are not; that means
that our true nature is beyond our awareness.
(That's why in ACIM this state is called "sleep".)
Only when the split is healed, or the blocks to
the awareness of love's presence are removed,
is awareness of our true nature regained.
>>> Nothing more,
>>> nothing less!? And what's the point of projecting any-
>>> thing anyway, if it's not perceived? Perceived by another?
>>
>> Perception always has to do with form.
>> In principle minds can communicate directly,
>> imo as soon as they actually experience
>> not to be separate.
>
> Nonsense, IMO, if you can't say what formless
> communication is. Ideas are form too, no matter
> how abstract.
Why do you think so?
> And, wouldn't you say that minds
> without form/thoughts/etc in them can only be
> empty/inactive minds? Just mere potential.
You say that ideas are form too.
That would mean that, since "mind" is an
idea, "mind without form" is an impossibility.
>>> ACIM, all put together, increasingly appears nonsensical to
>>> me, as ACIM also says that God and Holy Spirit are basically
>>> nothing other than ideas themselves.
>>
>> Do you have a low esteem of ideas?
>
> Depends on the idea(s). IOW, IMO a silly,
> because ridiculously generalized question.
If God is an idea, then to you
ACIM is nonsensical. Does not that
imply that for you an idea is but an idea?
>>> Now, how can God/HS be
>>> ultimate reality/truth/cause, without answering what is the
>>> cause/source of the ideas of God/HS?
>>
>> God is not effect, but Cause.
>
> So you and others say. FMPOV, God is both, cause and effect.
> Question is, caused by what and causing what. Point is that
> if God is an idea (ACIM says so), then..., logically, God
> can not be the fundamental/primary/absolute "Cause".
For you an idea apparently is a derivative.
>>> Is God then perhaps
>>> only the God of mind(s)/creation/projection, with some much
>>> deeper truth and being(ness) behind the phenomena of mind(s)?
>>> If so, why not try to go past the/all level(s) of mind(s) and
>>> its/their compulsive projecting/creating altogether, go to
>>> true liberation, from all dramas, to pure being(ness) itself!?
>>> --expires
>>
>> Imo all answers will be given
>> in proportion to the removal of
>> the blocks to the awareness of
>> love's presence.
>
> <irony>Oh yeah, there's been lots of "love" coming from this
> newsgroup in my direction in the last couple of months.</irony>
> Anyway, to me love is given/received, some"thing" that's done,
> and not something one is. It's a choice, a principal, a law, an activity,
> etc, but not fundamental being(ness) itself.
That is because of the separation.
When it is healed, we know again.
> So to be
> "it" is FMPOV a misconception of absolute/fundamental (S)elf.
> --expires