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About last night ...

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

7/28/2006 3:59:00 AM

Now that I have your attention :) ... last night was FOSCON II -- Ruby
Rodeo. I was there, though not at OSCON. It was nice to meet folks like
Jim Weirich, David A. Black, Phil Tomson, Amy Hoy, and nearly all of our
neighbors from the "Zen Ruby" brigade up in Seattle. If I had known
there was going to be code sharing, I suppose I would have brought a
laptop and a wireless card.

Actually, though, this is a semi-serious post, brought on by Amy's talk
at the end. It's not so much about the main thrust of her talk, which I
certainly agree with. It's about some of the things she said at the
beginning, and some of the things I've heard recently. More
specifically, it's about the fact that

a. The upcoming Ruby Conference in Colorado had 73 proposals for papers
submitted, of which only 16 could fit into the schedule,
b. There are only 240 slots for *attendees* to the conference, while
there are most likely thousands with the means and desire to attend, and
c. Given b, people are actually running scripts to poll the conference
web site and grab the registration form, in the hopes that they'll be
one of the lucky 240.

I'm not sure what this all means yet, and I'm not sure it's mostly a
good thing. For example, some people who have made *major* contributions
to the language and the community will most likely be shut out of the
opportunity to attend. And interest in Ruby, as Amy noted, seems to be
far outpacing the supply of volunteers to help the Nuby, even if they
aren't what Amy called "help vampires".

Certainly the regional conferences will help ... I think between Seattle
and Portland we have enough talent to put one on -- how about Centralia?
:) But the wider issue is, "Is there more demand for Ruby resources than
there is supply?" That's especially a concern when there seems to be an
*endless* supply of Java and Perl and PHP resources, and maybe even
Python and Javascript.

Anyhow, what do other people here think?
23 Answers

James Britt

7/28/2006 4:43:00 AM

0

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

>
> a. The upcoming Ruby Conference in Colorado had 73 proposals for papers
> submitted, of which only 16 could fit into the schedule,

Yes, I know. :(

> b. There are only 240 slots for *attendees* to the conference, while
> there are most likely thousands with the means and desire to attend, and
> c. Given b, people are actually running scripts to poll the conference
> web site and grab the registration form, in the hopes that they'll be
> one of the lucky 240.

A robot to check the site ... Neat. Hope they use Etag and
last-modified checks.


>
> I'm not sure what this all means yet, and I'm not sure it's mostly a
> good thing. For example, some people who have made *major* contributions
> to the language and the community will most likely be shut out of the
> opportunity to attend. And interest in Ruby, as Amy noted, seems to be
> far outpacing the supply of volunteers to help the Nuby, even if they
> aren't what Amy called "help vampires".

If we insult enough nubies, maybe they'll go away? (Don't care for the
'help vampire' meme, though I think I understand her point.)

More important, it would indeed be a shame for people to miss the annual
RubyConf simply because of bad timing when hearing about start of
registration. Is that likely? Given that a large portion of interest
is in Ruby as Rails, and not Ruby itself, I wonder if the recent Rails
cons will have satisfied people who may now be less motivated to attend
the Ruby conference(s).

>
> Certainly the regional conferences will help ... I think between Seattle
> and Portland we have enough talent to put one on -- how about Centralia?
> :) But the wider issue is, "Is there more demand for Ruby resources than
> there is supply?" That's especially a concern when there seems to be an
> *endless* supply of Java and Perl and PHP resources, and maybe even
> Python and Javascript.
>
> Anyhow, what do other people here think?

I know others have been discussing local conferences. One question
that has come up is what will draw the best crowd, and what crowd should
one be looking to attract. Specifically, turn out for a regional Ruby
conference vs. a regional Rails conference. When one talks of Ruby
resources and nuby demand, is the demand for Ruby programming knowledge
or Rails API support? (I know, this is a simplification, but I think it
focuses the main idea.)

I'd hate to find that I can't attend the Denver gathering because I got
to the Web site too late (though my army of tireless robots shall be
unleashed momentarily!!!) and I have to believe many others feel the
same way. And I'd hate to see the event become "exclusive" or viewed
as such (despite knowing that David, Chad, Rich, et al would never
intend such a thing). On the other hand, I like the idea of smaller
assemblies. There are notable differences in gatherings of 12, 25, 55,
240, and 500, and I can appreciate David's interest in capping registration.

Perhaps, if avoiding the enterprisy-ness of multi-track, 500+ attendee
conferences is a useful goal, then there should not be just the One,
True RubyConf, but several regional ones, across the globe. Perhaps
that's more agilely.

Or it may be non-issue if people have a choice between Rails and Ruby
conferences; RubyConf may go back to ~50 people who all know each other.

--
James Britt

"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming is
not worth knowing."
- A. Perlis

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

7/28/2006 4:45:00 AM

0

Charles O Nutter wrote:
> for one have been very disappointed with the limtations put on RubyConf
> this year.
>
> - Only ten days were given to submit proposals
> - Only 16 proposals were selected, no more than the previous year (or at
> least not much more)
> - Only 240 people will get to attend, a measly 20% increase in space over
> last year when last year's attendance more than doubled over 2004
>
> I have friends and friends of friends polling for me. The limitation
> to such
> low numbers seems to be entirely counter-productive.
>
> That said, I would be very happy to see other conferences come around to
> pick up the slack, and if it looked like RubyConf was going to be a no-go
> I'd consider attending something else.
Clearly there *are* limitations ... it costs money to host a conference,
and the hosting organization is a non-profit one. That said, quite a few
universities have space available during the summer at rates far more
reasonable than any hotel you could stand to stay in. One of the best
SIAM meetings I ever went to was on the RPI campus in Troy, NY, and I
spent three weeks on the UC Santa Cruz campus one summer for about a
third of what a cheap motel would have cost.

The issue of supply/demand goes deeper than just the conferences. What
about *code*? Sure, we all think Ruby is at least as productive as the
other "dynamic/scripting/interpreted" languages and possibly more
productive, and certainly more productive than a compiled one. It seems
to me there's a lot more demand for code than there is supply.

pat eyler

7/28/2006 5:31:00 AM

0

On 7/27/06, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:
> Now that I have your attention :) ... last night was FOSCON II -- Ruby
> Rodeo. I was there, though not at OSCON. It was nice to meet folks like
> Jim Weirich, David A. Black, Phil Tomson, Amy Hoy, and nearly all of our
> neighbors from the "Zen Ruby" brigade up in Seattle. If I had known
> there was going to be code sharing, I suppose I would have brought a
> laptop and a wireless card.

Wow, I'm not sure how I missed you. Bummer.


> Certainly the regional conferences will help ... I think between Seattle
> and Portland we have enough talent to put one on -- how about Centralia?

How about a Ruby track at the Linux Northwest Fest in Bellingham WA next
April (2007). I was actually spending a good part of last the last
couple of days
(including last night at FOSCon) trying to line up support. I think we're in
good shape to pull it off.

I've got a tentative agreement from the LNW Fest folks to let us run a full
track (4 talks). They're going to start organizing in December, and I'd like to
put out a call for papers in November, with a New Year's Eve deadline (PST).
I think we could get the talks selected in January, and leave the presenters
February and March to write their talks.

> :) But the wider issue is, "Is there more demand for Ruby resources than
> there is supply?" That's especially a concern when there seems to be an
> *endless* supply of Java and Perl and PHP resources, and maybe even
> Python and Javascript.
>
> Anyhow, what do other people here think?

I've seen some of the talks that just didn't fit at RubyConf ... I think there's
a lot of supply out there. Certainly, there's a lot of untapped potential as
well.

>
>


--
thanks,
-pate
-------------------------
http://on-ruby.bl...

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

7/28/2006 5:36:00 AM

0

James Britt wrote:
> More important, it would indeed be a shame for people to miss the
> annual RubyConf simply because of bad timing when hearing about start
> of registration. Is that likely? Given that a large portion of
> interest is in Ruby as Rails, and not Ruby itself, I wonder if the
> recent Rails cons will have satisfied people who may now be less
> motivated to attend the Ruby conference(s).
Well ... the 16 presenters will be there, and the conference organizers
... that's probably at least half a dozen. I'm guessing all the folks
who submitted proposals that were rejected want to go anyway, so there's
almost 100 right there.

> I know others have been discussing local conferences. One question
> that has come up is what will draw the best crowd, and what crowd
> should one be looking to attract. Specifically, turn out for a
> regional Ruby conference vs. a regional Rails conference. When one
> talks of Ruby resources and nuby demand, is the demand for Ruby
> programming knowledge or Rails API support? (I know, this is a
> simplification, but I think it focuses the main idea.)
After reading David Black's "Ruby for Rails", I'm finding it exceedingly
difficult to separate the two of them. Quite frankly, I don't think you
can call yourself a Rails developer unless you're a *strong* Ruby
programmer. Sure, you can put together a cookbook, maybe even a wiki or
a blog, just knowing how to use a browser, a text editor and all of the
built-in capabilities of Rails, without a deep knowledge of Ruby. But a
*real* web app? No way! Amy said it last night -- "Rails is a gateway drug".

With hotel costs and air fares being what they are these days, I think
I'd *prefer* regional conferences. Some of the most amazing Ruby is
coming out of the Seattle Ruby Brigade, for example. I don't know where
many of the other folks on this list call home, so I don't know what
other cities would be logical places for a regional conference.
> I'd hate to find that I can't attend the Denver gathering because I
> got to the Web site too late (though my army of tireless robots shall
> be unleashed momentarily!!!) and I have to believe many others feel
> the same way. And I'd hate to see the event become "exclusive" or
> viewed as such (despite knowing that David, Chad, Rich, et al would
> never intend such a thing). On the other hand, I like the idea of
> smaller assemblies. There are notable differences in gatherings of
> 12, 25, 55, 240, and 500, and I can appreciate David's interest in
> capping registration.
Well ... I can tell you point blank I won't write a bot to poll the
site. If I don't get to go, I don't get to go. I'll survive, I'll go on
coding and lobbying for a regional conference in the Pacific Northwest.
I just wonder about a programming language whose creator and early
adopters have become a smaller-scale equivalent of rock stars. I can't
recall that *ever* happening before. In fact, I can't recall *any* piece
of software where that's happened!

The scary thing about this is that such high-powered demands are often a
bubble, which eventually bursts in a spectacular way. That's not
something I think anyone wants to happen to Ruby, or even to Rails.
>
> Perhaps, if avoiding the enterprisy-ness of multi-track, 500+ attendee
> conferences is a useful goal, then there should not be just the One,
> True RubyConf, but several regional ones, across the globe. Perhaps
> that's more agilely.
>
> Or it may be non-issue if people have a choice between Rails and Ruby
> conferences; RubyConf may go back to ~50 people who all know each other.
I doubt that very seriously. I have to admit my motivation for going to
the conference is more to meet the big names in Ruby than it is to see
all sixteen of the chosen talks. There are at least ten that contain
something I could use, but it's also about being with people who "speak
the same language".

John Labovitz

7/28/2006 5:41:00 AM

0

As one of the FOSCON organizers, I'll chime in here.

I love the idea of regional conferences, organized according to the
philosophy of the groups who are doing the organizing. RubyConf is
unique in its one-track, three-day format, but it has obvious scaling
issues. And when that's known as the one conference you can't miss,
the feeling of unintentional exclusivity arises.

FOSCON has taken two tacks thus far: last year we approached people
who were speaking at OSCON and invited them to give a "preview" of
their talk at FOSCON. This year the FOSCON planners sat down and
made up a list of who we thought were influential and important
people in the Ruby community, and invited them to speak about
whatever they liked. There was no jurying or selection, beyond the
initial voting of which of the six people we were going to contact.
We also encouraged the 20-minute lightning talk format to keep things
interesting, given that we had basically a three-hour period to have
our micro-conference.

Like Pat mentioned, events like Linuxfest Northwest are an alternate
method of putting together Ruby conferences, without having to do
*all* the hard work of finding a venue, dealing with registration,
etc. I'm sure there are many similar conferences that could have a
Ruby presence. For FOSCON, we had an existing relationship with Free
Geek (we have our monthly meetings there), and they were kind enough
to give us the space for free. Maybe there are similar nonprofits
that can help with the gritty logistical issues.

--John

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

7/28/2006 5:47:00 AM

0

pat eyler wrote:
> On 7/27/06, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:
>> Now that I have your attention :) ... last night was FOSCON II -- Ruby
>> Rodeo. I was there, though not at OSCON. It was nice to meet folks like
>> Jim Weirich, David A. Black, Phil Tomson, Amy Hoy, and nearly all of our
>> neighbors from the "Zen Ruby" brigade up in Seattle. If I had known
>> there was going to be code sharing, I suppose I would have brought a
>> laptop and a wireless card.
>
> Wow, I'm not sure how I missed you. Bummer.
I was (deliberately) being quiet and unobtrusive for the most part. If
it matters, I was the one who asked the question about whether BFTS was
available for download. :)

Oh, yeah ... what is it about Ruby and Macintoshes? I'm glad I didn't
have my dual-booted Windows XP Pro/Gentoo Linux laptop there ... I think
I would have felt like an outsider.

<ducking>

> How about a Ruby track at the Linux Northwest Fest in Bellingham WA next
> April (2007). I was actually spending a good part of last the last
> couple of days
> (including last night at FOSCon) trying to line up support. I think
> we're in
> good shape to pull it off.
Well ... it's a long drive but I'd go. Just don't have the Ruby track at
the same time as the Gentoo track!
>
> I've got a tentative agreement from the LNW Fest folks to let us run a
> full
> track (4 talks). They're going to start organizing in December, and
> I'd like to
> put out a call for papers in November, with a New Year's Eve deadline
> (PST).
> I think we could get the talks selected in January, and leave the
> presenters
> February and March to write their talks.
4 talks? You'll get 16 to 20 just out of Seattle alone! Then there's
Portland and Vancouver BC. And there's got to be a few Ruby geeks in
Richland.

pat eyler

7/28/2006 5:54:00 AM

0

On 7/27/06, John Labovitz <johnl@johnlabovitz.com> wrote:
> Like Pat mentioned, events like Linuxfest Northwest are an alternate
> method of putting together Ruby conferences, without having to do
> *all* the hard work of finding a venue, dealing with registration,
> etc. I'm sure there are many similar conferences that could have a
> Ruby presence. For FOSCON, we had an existing relationship with Free
> Geek (we have our monthly meetings there), and they were kind enough
> to give us the space for free. Maybe there are similar nonprofits
> that can help with the gritty logistical issues.

Let me also point out that Rubyists in Michigan have already scheduled
a Ruby Conf for the end of August. I've also heard rumblings from a
couple of groups in California, and in the mountain west. I think this is
going to be a very interesting couple of years as the regional conferences
start to roll out. One thing I hope we can avoid is a crush of gatherings
that impose a smothering effect on one another. Perhaps it's time to
dig out a calendar app with which organizers can coordinate amongst
themselves.


>
> --John
>
>


--
thanks,
-pate
-------------------------
http://on-ruby.bl...

pat eyler

7/28/2006 6:00:00 AM

0

On 7/27/06, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:
> pat eyler wrote:
> > On 7/27/06, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:
> >> Now that I have your attention :) ... last night was FOSCON II -- Ruby
> >> Rodeo. I was there, though not at OSCON. It was nice to meet folks like
> >> Jim Weirich, David A. Black, Phil Tomson, Amy Hoy, and nearly all of our
> >> neighbors from the "Zen Ruby" brigade up in Seattle. If I had known
> >> there was going to be code sharing, I suppose I would have brought a
> >> laptop and a wireless card.
> >
> > Wow, I'm not sure how I missed you. Bummer.
> I was (deliberately) being quiet and unobtrusive for the most part. If
> it matters, I was the one who asked the question about whether BFTS was
> available for download. :)

Ahh, ok.

>
> Oh, yeah ... what is it about Ruby and Macintoshes? I'm glad I didn't
> have my dual-booted Windows XP Pro/Gentoo Linux laptop there ... I think
> I would have felt like an outsider.
>

heh, I was there with my Linux running thinkpad ... no Apple issues here. ;)

> <ducking>
>



> > I've got a tentative agreement from the LNW Fest folks to let us run a
> > full
> > track (4 talks). They're going to start organizing in December, and
> > I'd like to
> > put out a call for papers in November, with a New Year's Eve deadline
> > (PST).
> > I think we could get the talks selected in January, and leave the
> > presenters
> > February and March to write their talks.

> 4 talks? You'll get 16 to 20 just out of Seattle alone! Then there's
> Portland and Vancouver BC.

Yeah, I'm hoping to get 16-20 proposals, so that we can field 4
"knock their socks off" tracks. The others would make great
fodder for one or more local/regional meetings.

As it happens, I know about another project that will be looking for
quality (written) materials that I hope to be able to start hyping in
August. If you just can't wait, there's also Ruby Code & Style
who probably wouldn't mind getting a couple of submitted articles.

> And there's got to be a few Ruby geeks in
> Richland.
>

Well., there is an olympia.rb that we should try to tap as well. :) The
Pacific Northwest is certainly a hotbed of Ruby goodness.


>


--
thanks,
-pate
-------------------------
http://on-ruby.bl...

James Britt

7/28/2006 6:14:00 AM

0

pat eyler wrote:

> Yeah, I'm hoping to get 16-20 proposals, so that we can field 4
> "knock their socks off" tracks. The others would make great
> fodder for one or more local/regional meetings.
>
> As it happens, I know about another project that will be looking for
> quality (written) materials that I hope to be able to start hyping in
> August. If you just can't wait, there's also Ruby Code & Style
> who probably wouldn't mind getting a couple of submitted articles.

Very much so. And we can pay the writers now. :)

Contact me at james DOT britt AT gmail DOT com

BTW, the Phoenix area has some ideas being kicked around for Ruby cons
and Ruby tracks at Web/Geek gatherings.


--
James Britt

"If you don't write it down, it never happened."
- (Unknown to me)

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

7/28/2006 1:17:00 PM

0

dblack@wobblini.net wrote:
> Hi --
>
> On Fri, 28 Jul 2006, Charles O Nutter wrote:
>
>> On 7/27/06, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> a. The upcoming Ruby Conference in Colorado had 73 proposals for papers
>>> submitted, of which only 16 could fit into the schedule,
>>> b. There are only 240 slots for *attendees* to the conference, while
>>> there are most likely thousands with the means and desire to attend,
>>> and
>>> c. Given b, people are actually running scripts to poll the conference
>>> web site and grab the registration form, in the hopes that they'll be
>>> one of the lucky 240.
>>>
>>
>> I for one have been very disappointed with the limtations put on
>> RubyConf
>> this year.
>>
>> - Only ten days were given to submit proposals
>
> Submissions started on June 1 and ended on June 30. That's 29 days.
Plus, at one point you almost had to beg for proposals. :)