Count 1
10/2/2010 2:16:00 PM
"iconoclast@yahoo.com" <coaster132000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c69b11a4-4f9f-473c-b3b2-c4a95651f54c@h37g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
"Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> >Israel can do for that part of the world what Jews in general did for
> >ours... helped make it enormously better.
That's why the Nazi exceptionalists took Eastern Europe you know, to
make it better. And that's why five years later the Soviets with the
keys to history jingling in their pockets took Eastern Europe, to make
it better. And that's why Israel took the West Bank and East Jerusalem
and the Golan, to make them better in the very same utopian sense. Our
talented Jewish minority has certainly made a great contribution to
the the U.S., but to the extent that they did and still do, they
didn't do it by theft.
***
???
***
You clearly haven't been to that
> >part of world, I have.
Where, how long and why? What did you do, score a junket to Israel?
****
"No errands"
***
Arabia, portions of Asia, North and East Africa
> >fractured their cultures by observing the call to Islam. Islam has -
> >since
> >the death of Muhammed - created division. Islam is a younger religion and
> >it
> >is far less ambiguous than Christianity.
You didn't absorb any of that alleged knowledge by a visit to the
Middle East, Count.
***
Cling to your fantasies if they provide you comfort, but don't be offended
when we mention how immature security blankets are.
***
ner gushes:
> Wow, that's very good. I never thought about ambiguity being a
> positive factor, but in the context of something inherently malignant
> like religion, ambiguity is a desirable mitigating factor. Shit, I
> think that's really profound, thanks for that.
And the Anglo Saxon in Canada continues:
> It holds a stronger grasp on the
> >average adherent -
Stronger than the grasp of fundamentalist Judaism on ultra orthodox
Israelis?? Surely you jest.
***
"Average adherent..."
***
even though that is changing very rapidly (especially in
> >the last 40 years). This doesn't mean you have to fear it,
I don't. Inculcating fear of it is Ratner's specialty as an agent of
the Lobby.
***
As an agent of the Palestinian propaganda machine inculcating fear of
Israel's and Jews is your 'specialty', although it's a stretch to imagine
you could do anything well enough to be called a specialist. Let's call it
your 'avocation'. However you're quite wrong about Drahcir, all I see is
someone who calls your shit brown.
***
but you should
> >recognize the potential for radicalization of adherents within it, and
> >you
> >should recognize how Israel's enemies are motivated by it.
I don't see the potential for radicalization as a bit greater than
that we see in Rabbi Shapira on the West Bank.
***
Excellent - when you see Rabbi Shapira pulling off a 9/11 we'll talk. The
reality is extremist Jews simply do not have the numbers or the motivation
to conduct terrorism on the scale extremist Muslims *do* (not
hypothetically, actually are doing).
***
Israel's enemies are motivated by the behavior of israel and her
sponsor, the United States. They are motivated by what we do, not who
we are. The religion colors the response but you're dead wrong in the
pretense that it creates it.
***
Israel's enemies are motivated not by what she does but by her very
existence. You don't understand the Hamas press release, you're not
listenting to the words of Nasrallah. These people will always be motivated
to destroy Israel, regardless of a peace deal with the Palestinians in any
form. It's based on ideology, not history.
****
That's a slander of Islam.
*****
No, it is a recognition of facts.
****
The resistance
is reactive. What you say is the same faux-intellectual nonsense
Ratner was peddling on SRI. Neither of you knows anything more about
the situation than a typical reader of the Sunday Times.
***
Actually I didn't, but I do wish you knew that much.
***
You have admitted
> >ignorance of these topics, and instead continuously blame Israel for all
> >the
> >problems in the ME and for all Arab resentment against America, as if the
> >nations exist in a vaccum.
As to your allegation of "ignorance," what I've told you is only that
one doesn't need to do a close study Hamas' political propaganda to
understand the origins of the conflict and which policies must change
first.
***
Why form an opinion from ignorance?
***
Their political propaganda is obviously reactive. Such policies
and propaganda didn't exist until the Ashkenazi, armed with their new
ideology, started arriving in Palestine with the intent to take it
from its native people. That Israel is the bottom line aggressor is
proved definitively by the history of Zionist expansion--if only by
just looking at successive maps which are readily available and have
previously been posted here. That israel is the aggressor is also
proved definitively by comparing Israeli behavior with the law.
Nothing exists in a vacuum. You are correct on that even though you
don't understand its application here. What you have to admit is that
Zionism is racism BECAUSE Hitler's crimes do not and of necessity can
not justify Ben-Gurion's or those of his successors.
***
Israel is not a response to Hitler's crimes. As has been pointed out to you
on many occassions modern zionism started before Hitler's birth. Jews have
been struggling to build their nation on their ancestral homeland for over a
hundred years. Zionism is not racism because 'Jew' is a quasi ethno-centric,
religous term and not a 'race'. To suggest Israel is the 'aggressor' is to
completely misread modern Israeli history. The 'history of Zionist
expansion' contains too many withdrawals to support the charge of
'aggressor'.
If you cannot bring new material which hasn't been debunked many times in
the past why do you bother coming back?
***
It was wrong for them to purport to give something
which was not theirs to others who had no legitimate claim to it.
Accordingly all that's left in the analysis is racism. In sum, Count,
there would be no significant Muslim "resentment against America" if
we weren't smashing up countries over there as the enforcer and
enabler of Israeli colonial expansion. They wouldn't resent us if we
had not created the regional Israeli superpower and then done nothing
to curb her appetites. And for Chrissake we didn't even volunteer for
the position. We're dragooned into it whether we like it or not. Tell
your Zionist friends to get Israel out of the West Bank so that we can
be done with this.
***
Tell your Palestinians friends they are going to have accept Ramallah as
their capital and reasonable compensation in lieu of 'right of return'. Also
tell them Israel will keep portions of the West Bank and Golan she considers
important to her security. A security she needs because her enemies keep
telling us they won't stop fighting even after a deal is made. The
Palestinians need to tell Hamas, Hezbollah, and Syrian "leadership" to
re-write their agendas. The remainder of your screed falls into the
'addressed several times before' category.
*****
> >To suggest this is a 'racist' comment is to display ignorance of just how
> >far and fast Islam spread in the world. Don't you find it interesting
> >that
> >Indonesian and Malaysian Muslims don't care about Israel and the
> >Palestinians?
I don't believe this undocumented assertion. Over to you.
***
What you believe or not is irrelevant. Facts are relevant. Go to Indonesia
and Malaysia and discover it for yourself.
***
They basically don't give a shit. Not their corner of their
> >world. Sure, you'll find groups of people agitated from seeing their
> >'brothers' suffering in Gaza on Al-Jazeera, but they are the exception to
> >the rule.
You've just contradicted yourself.
***
So? You don't believe it anyway.
No, the point is Islamic diversity. To suggest discussing one aspect of
Islamic cultural impact is 'racism' ignores the diversity within the Islamic
world. Islam still broke the backs of those countries, but they have
different scapegoats. Go there and find out for yourself.
******
> >***
> >I still have his marked-up copies of
> >both and of Lavengro too. And yes, I did consult Wiki. Is there a
> >problem with that? In a courtroom one may refresh a witness' memory
> >with anything. Why not here with Wiki? Were you given similar
> >opportunities at that stage in your life, you might have come away
> >with better opinions of Gypsies and Arabs.
> >***
>
> >I have never seen Drahcir speak of Arabs or Gypsies. He has spoken of
> >Islam
> >and Muslims though.
Are not Arabs Muslims? Are not Iranians Muslims.
***
No, not all Arabs and Persians are muslims. As I said, I've never seen
drahcir speak of Arabs or Gypsies. If you have an example, nows the time to
show it.
****
> >***
> >BTW, you are not telling the truth when you deny having read the
> >article. Your compulsions won't permit that.
> >***
>
> >The article you're speaking of doesn't exist.
Explain that to Ratner.
****
"No Errands"
*****
> >***
> >So, the advice is now that you read all three of them. Meet Audah abu
> >Tahyi and Prince Feisal. Meet Borrow (...) Meet the great Lawrence
> >himself
> >***
>
> >None of those people ever existed.
>
> >***
> >Come to understand why he had such great respect for the Arab people and
> >what a crushing personal defeat it was when he and they were betrayed by
> >his
> >own government at the end of WW I.
> >***
>
> >There was never any historical event called 'World War 1'. And wikipedia
> >doesn't have an article about it.
>
> >Good job sniffing out another of Hunter's attempts to appear intelligent,
> >Drahcir. Fun stuff.
It's up to the readership as to whether you're having fun here.
***
Nope, that call is solely mine. Only I can say if I'm having fun or not.
(I am)
***
I doubt they're amused by your frivolity. For me it's close to four
thousand this week. How about you, Count?
***
12 Billion. But I'm not naive enough to think that stat is relevant or
suggests all those people agree with what I write. (Hint hint....)