Asp Forum - [OT] Using emacs on Apple's PowerBook

Dae San Hwang

3/19/2006 8:55:00 PM

I apologize for the off topic post, but knowing that many ruby
programmers are emacs/PowerBook users, I don't think this is
completely irrelevant..

For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your
PowerBook? I've been thinking about buying a powerbook for four
years now but didn't only because using emacs key bindings seems
extremely awkward on Apple's laptops. On the lower left side of
powerbook, there is a 'fn' key which confuses my figures on the
correct positions of control/meta(option) keys. On the lower right
side of powerbook, there is no control/meta keys due to the placement
of near useless arrow keys.

I actually had expected someone would build/sell a customized
PowerBook keyboards tailored for emacs users by now.. I am confused
since no other emacs users seem to be bothered by this. I really
think Apple should at least provide an option of the replacement
keyboard for emacs PowerBook users.

With the introduction of MacBook Pro and near ubiquitousness of WiFi
connection, my desire for a laptop couldn't have been higher. Can
anybody who share this dilemma comment on this?

For those of you who think I'm a total nut for expecting Apple to
solve my person problem, emacs key bindings have been supported in
all text widgets of Cocoa applications ever since Mac OS X came out
and it's only logical to expect their hardware to be designed in line
with their software features.

sorry for the rant,

daesan

31 Answers

Daniel Harple

3/19/2006 9:25:00 PM

On Mar 19, 2006, at 9:55 PM, Dae San Hwang wrote:

> For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your
> PowerBook? I've been thinking about buying a powerbook for four
> years now but didn't only because using emacs key bindings seems
> extremely awkward on Apple's laptops. On the lower left side of
> powerbook, there is a 'fn' key which confuses my figures on the
> correct positions of control/meta(option) keys. On the lower right
> side of powerbook, there is no control/meta keys due to the
> placement of near useless arrow keys.

System Preferences -> Keyboard and Mouse -> Modifier Keys: Set caps
lock to control. Use option as your meta key (not command). I like
the arrow keys on my powerbook. ;)

-- Daniel

zuzu

3/19/2006 10:05:00 PM

On 3/19/06, Dae San Hwang <daesan@gmail.com> wrote:> I apologize for the off topic post, but knowing that many ruby> programmers are emacs/PowerBook users, I don't think this is> completely irrelevant..http://aqua... bind meta to the cmd key, and suck up the unfortunate fact thatcaps-lock is physically where ctrl should be. The old TiBooks hadswappable keyboards, but those were dumped starting with the AluminumPowerbooks for the ostentatious feature of backlit keys. Too bad a3rd party market for alternative keyboards didn't happen before; thenagain, too bad the TiBooks stuck with ADB rather than diving into USB(which is also powered).Apple does LOTS of, imho, stupid things. (Let's start with no FW800on the MacBook, and Firewire dropped from the Nano and Video iPod... Let's continue with iTunes stopping receiving podcast subscriptionsbecause you haven't listened to them "recently" enough (and nopreference to disable this "feature")... or what a clusterfuck theQuicktime framework perpetually remains, so that everyone ostensiblyuses VideoLAN... Oh yeah, and now they're marketing some kind of iPodboombox, instead of... say... an HDTV+DVD ripping Tivo-killer anddedicated QTSS server. Oh, maybe we can start with something easier,like maturing the Apache and ZeroConf (er, Rendezvous, er, I meanBonjour) integration so that end-users can EASILY publish web content(like sharing files with friends) __over the internet__ in a one-clickmanner; you know, kinda like Cobalt/Sun did with the Qube over adecade ago!Or, hell, just offer a laptop with more than 2GB of RAM, _please_!Of course, asking Apple to do better is like asking the Ruby communityto pull EMACS out of its EmacsLisp funk and re-implement a completereplacement written in Ruby instead. (Because, we all love IRB;RubEMACS is the next logical step.)my .emacs includes:;; Make the Cmd key the Meta key(setq mac-command-modifier 'meta);; Merge Apple clipboard into Emacs killring(setq x-select-enable-clipboard t);; One windowframe only for all buffers(one-buffer-one-frame-mode 0);; Disable the toolbar(tool-bar-mode 0)> For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your> PowerBook? I've been thinking about buying a powerbook for four> years now but didn't only because using emacs key bindings seems> extremely awkward on Apple's laptops. On the lower left side of> powerbook, there is a 'fn' key which confuses my figures on the> correct positions of control/meta(option) keys. On the lower right> side of powerbook, there is no control/meta keys due to the placement> of near useless arrow keys.>> I actually had expected someone would build/sell a customized> PowerBook keyboards tailored for emacs users by now.. I am confused> since no other emacs users seem to be bothered by this. I really> think Apple should at least provide an option of the replacement> keyboard for emacs PowerBook users.>> With the introduction of MacBook Pro and near ubiquitousness of WiFi> connection, my desire for a laptop couldn't have been higher. Can> anybody who share this dilemma comment on this?>> For those of you who think I'm a total nut for expecting Apple to> solve my person problem, emacs key bindings have been supported in> all text widgets of Cocoa applications ever since Mac OS X came out> and it's only logical to expect their hardware to be designed in line> with their software features.>> sorry for the rant,>> daesan

Dae San Hwang

3/19/2006 10:30:00 PM

Actually, I'm not old enough of an emacs user to be accustomed to
caps-lock positioned control key. But how do you live without right
control/meta keys? Do you actually press 'caps-lock + a' with only
left fingers to move to the beginning of a line?

daesan

On Mar 20, 2006, at 6:25 AM, Daniel Harple wrote:

> System Preferences -> Keyboard and Mouse -> Modifier Keys: Set caps
> lock to control. Use option as your meta key (not command). I like
> the arrow keys on my powerbook. ;)

zuzu

3/19/2006 11:13:00 PM

On 3/19/06, Dae San Hwang <daesan@gmail.com> wrote:> Actually, I'm not old enough of an emacs user to be accustomed to> caps-lock positioned control key. But how do you live without right> control/meta keys? Do you actually press 'caps-lock + a' with only> left fingers to move to the beginning of a line?>> daesanThese days I only practice my "correct" control-key with my "HappyHacker" keyboard, which isn't often on my TiBook. The caps-lock is a"special" key, in hardware, and produces weird sticky problems whensoftware attempts to fake it; so I don't bother.However, come to actually pause and think about it, I have developed acompletely rediculous left-hand shifting maneuver, where I use myleft-thumb to depress the ctrl or alt or meta key, and my left pointerfinger to depress the corresponding letter key (e.g C-a, C-e, Cx,etc.) I'm probably already accustomed to this thumb-behavior due tousing the meta (cmd) key proper for OSX key-combos. It sure beatshaving to rely on the "seeking" of a mouse, but I will concur thatsuch finger gymnastics falls far short of efficiency as well.> On Mar 20, 2006, at 6:25 AM, Daniel Harple wrote:>> > System Preferences -> Keyboard and Mouse -> Modifier Keys: Set caps> > lock to control. Use option as your meta key (not command). I like> > the arrow keys on my powerbook. ;)>>>

Dae San Hwang

3/19/2006 11:36:00 PM

On Mar 20, 2006, at 8:12 AM, zuzu wrote:
> However, come to actually pause and think about it, I have developed a
> completely rediculous left-hand shifting maneuver, where I use my
> left-thumb to depress the ctrl or alt or meta key, and my left pointer
> finger to depress the corresponding letter key (e.g C-a, C-e, Cx,
> etc.) I'm probably already accustomed to this thumb-behavior due to
> using the meta (cmd) key proper for OSX key-combos. It sure beats
> having to rely on the "seeking" of a mouse, but I will concur that
> such finger gymnastics falls far short of efficiency as well.

Uh, oh.. That is exactly what I was afraid of happening when using
PowerBook.. I think refusing to use laptops due to the key binding
issue like I have is rather ridiculous though.. Yet I wouldn't want
to jeopardize my computing productivity by giving up emacs key
bindings. Can larger emacs user population please stand up and share
your opinions on this issue?

Hey, we really should think about re-implementing emacs in ruby like
Sean mentioned. IMHO, Ruby is really a better lisp! ;)

daesan

Nicolas Kassis

3/20/2006 5:27:00 AM

Dae San Hwang wrote:

> I apologize for the off topic post, but knowing that many ruby
> programmers are emacs/PowerBook users, I don't think this is
> completely irrelevant..
>
> For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your
> PowerBook? I've been thinking about buying a powerbook for four years
> now but didn't only because using emacs key bindings seems extremely
> awkward on Apple's laptops. On the lower left side of powerbook, there
> is a 'fn' key which confuses my figures on the correct positions of
> control/meta(option) keys. On the lower right side of powerbook, there
> is no control/meta keys due to the placement of near useless arrow keys.
>
> I actually had expected someone would build/sell a customized
> PowerBook keyboards tailored for emacs users by now.. I am confused
> since no other emacs users seem to be bothered by this. I really think
> Apple should at least provide an option of the replacement keyboard
> for emacs PowerBook users.
>
> With the introduction of MacBook Pro and near ubiquitousness of WiFi
> connection, my desire for a laptop couldn't have been higher. Can
> anybody who share this dilemma comment on this?
>
> For those of you who think I'm a total nut for expecting Apple to
> solve my person problem, emacs key bindings have been supported in all
> text widgets of Cocoa applications ever since Mac OS X came out and
> it's only logical to expect their hardware to be designed in line with
> their software features.
>
> sorry for the rant,
>
> daesan
>
>
I feel you pain. To add to this, I really can't figure out how to make
the alt key become the Meta key in the terminal based emacs. I added the
(setq mac-command-key-is-meta nil)
but nothing works neither the apple key or the alt key is the meta key.
Did I miss something?

--
Nicolas Kassis
--------------
www.nickassis.net
www.nickassis.net/blog

zuzu

3/20/2006 6:23:00 AM

On 3/20/06, Nicolas Kassis <nic.kassis@gmail.com> wrote:> Dae San Hwang wrote:>> > I apologize for the off topic post, but knowing that many ruby> > programmers are emacs/PowerBook users, I don't think this is> > completely irrelevant..> >> > For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your> > PowerBook? I've been thinking about buying a powerbook for four years> > now but didn't only because using emacs key bindings seems extremely> > awkward on Apple's laptops. On the lower left side of powerbook, there> > is a 'fn' key which confuses my figures on the correct positions of> > control/meta(option) keys. On the lower right side of powerbook, there> > is no control/meta keys due to the placement of near useless arrow keys.> >> > I actually had expected someone would build/sell a customized> > PowerBook keyboards tailored for emacs users by now.. I am confused> > since no other emacs users seem to be bothered by this. I really think> > Apple should at least provide an option of the replacement keyboard> > for emacs PowerBook users.> >> > With the introduction of MacBook Pro and near ubiquitousness of WiFi> > connection, my desire for a laptop couldn't have been higher. Can> > anybody who share this dilemma comment on this?> >> > For those of you who think I'm a total nut for expecting Apple to> > solve my person problem, emacs key bindings have been supported in all> > text widgets of Cocoa applications ever since Mac OS X came out and> > it's only logical to expect their hardware to be designed in line with> > their software features.> >> > sorry for the rant,> >> > daesan> >> >> I feel you pain. To add to this, I really can't figure out how to make> the alt key become the Meta key in the terminal based emacs. I added the> (setq mac-command-key-is-meta nil)> but nothing works neither the apple key or the alt key is the meta key.> Did I miss something?I think the issue here is the terminal emulation you're using and thepreferences for Terminal.app. I'm rather certain a preference existsto correctly pass the alt keycode (which EMACS will then recognize). As, I sure do think having to use escape (Esc) for meta, sucks.> --> Nicolas Kassis> --------------> www.nickassis.net> www.nickassis.net/blog>>>

Gene Tani

3/20/2006 7:09:00 AM

Dae San Hwang

3/20/2006 7:27:00 AM

On Mar 20, 2006, at 2:27 PM, Nicolas Kassis wrote:
> I feel you pain. To add to this, I really can't figure out how to
> make the alt key become the Meta key in the terminal based emacs. I
> added the
> (setq mac-command-key-is-meta nil)
> but nothing works neither the apple key or the alt key is the meta
> key. Did I miss something?

From Terminal.app's menu select "Terminal" -> "Window Settings..."

Then from the drop down menu, choose "Keyboard" and check "Use option
as meta key". Then press "Use settings as Defaults". elisp
configuration for modifier keys only works for GUI based emacs.

I guess we really need some central repository of information for Mac
OS X emacs users.. In the mean time, you might want to refer to
http://www.macos...

best,
daesan

Dae San Hwang

3/20/2006 7:29:00 AM

On Mar 20, 2006, at 8:57 AM, zuzu wrote:
> My understanding is that EmacsLisp doesn't even have _closures_. :-(
>
> In addition to GNU EMACS being Free (Libre) Software, along with tons
> of FSF documentation, here's a digital copy of 'The Craft of Text
> Editing' (a breakdown and discussion of the design of EMACS):
> http://www.finseth....

Great resource! I got to take a close look at this~ :)

daesan

comp.lang.ruby

[OT] Using emacs on Apple's PowerBook

Dae San Hwang

Daniel Harple

zuzu

Dae San Hwang

zuzu

Dae San Hwang

Nicolas Kassis

zuzu

Gene Tani

Dae San Hwang

Dae San Hwang

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