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About rant on Dave Thomas site, titled 'imitation...'

simonh

1/21/2006 9:02:00 PM

Couldn't post a reply on Daves site so thought i'd post one here. Here
is post:

http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Random/Imit...

I think this is happening a lot. 37signals has been ripped off
according to DHH (I believe), rails has inspired many 'best ever, just
what you were looking for' web frameworks. I think it is a fact of
life. Selection of the Fittest in action. The unworthy will surely
perish as they always do.
33 Answers

isamura

1/21/2006 9:58:00 PM

0

"simonh" <simonharrison@fastmail.co.uk> wrote ...
: Couldn't post a reply on Daves site so thought i'd post one here. Here
: is post:
:
: http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Random/Imit...
:
In not so many words, publishers should commission Daves company
to provide them with customized solutions.

..k

Jonathan Leighton

1/24/2006 9:09:00 PM

0

On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 00:36 +0900, simonh wrote:
> Couldn't post a reply on Daves site so thought i'd post one here. Here
> is post:
>
> http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Random/Imit...
>
> I think this is happening a lot. 37signals has been ripped off
> according to DHH (I believe), rails has inspired many 'best ever, just
> what you were looking for' web frameworks. I think it is a fact of
> life. Selection of the Fittest in action. The unworthy will surely
> perish as they always do.

This is something called competition which is generally considered to be
a good thing for consumers (that's us). I agree ripping stuff off is
somewhat low, but if they can still pull it off better than the copycats
there is nothing to be concerned about.

Ultimately I don't really feel sorry for any of these companies that
have been "ripped off"; that's part of being in business in the first
place (at least if you're doing anything remotely interesting)

--
Jonathan Leighton
http://turnips... | http://jonathanlei... | http://digital-...

james_b

1/24/2006 9:34:00 PM

0

simonh wrote:
> Couldn't post a reply on Daves site so thought i'd post one here. Here
> is post:
>
> http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Random/Imit...
>
> I think this is happening a lot. 37signals has been ripped off
> according to DHH (I believe), rails has inspired many 'best ever, just
> what you were looking for' web frameworks. I think it is a fact of
> life. Selection of the Fittest in action. The unworthy will surely
> perish as they always do.

How many people or companies create anything out of thin air? How much
is simply the influence of the extant culture and available technology,
and how much is raw innovation? When does influence become "ripping off"?

If you take an idea from one person, it's stealing, but imitate what
two people are doing, and you're just following common practice. Go
figure.


--
James Britt

"Blanket statements are over-rated"

Alex Combas

1/25/2006 9:01:00 AM

0

Last Paragraph from PragDaves blog post:
"For this reason, I honestly don't mind other publishers blatantly
ripping us off. But I'd rather they didn't. Instead, I'd rather they
found their own ways of innovating, and build their own ideas that
others found useful. The publishing industry is in transition. It
needs all the good ideas it can get. All publishers should contribute
in their own way to the reshaping of the industry. Simply aping
someone else's success won't help the community as a whole."

Good ideas deserve to be shared, kudos to the Pragmatic publishing group.
However its bad taste to complain when the people coming behind you
borrow your ideas.
Instead be proud you've actually had the wit and luck to lead pack in
a new direction, not many get that chance, and don't forget just how
much knowledge you in turn have had to borrow from predecessors to get
to where you are today.

--
Alex Combas
http://noodlejunkie.blo...

SteveC

1/25/2006 1:48:00 PM

0

* @ 24/01/06 09:33:40 PM james_b@neurogami.com wrote:
> simonh wrote:
> >Couldn't post a reply on Daves site so thought i'd post one here. Here
> >is post:
> >
> >http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Random/Imit...
> >
> >I think this is happening a lot. 37signals has been ripped off
> >according to DHH (I believe), rails has inspired many 'best ever, just
> >what you were looking for' web frameworks. I think it is a fact of
> >life. Selection of the Fittest in action. The unworthy will surely
> >perish as they always do.
>
> How many people or companies create anything out of thin air? How much
> is simply the influence of the extant culture and available technology,
> and how much is raw innovation? When does influence become "ripping off"?
>
> If you take an idea from one person, it's stealing, but imitate what

No, you can't steal but you might infringe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in...

have fun,

SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater....

Dale Martenson

1/25/2006 4:08:00 PM

0

There are three basic types of people/groups/companies:

Proactive:
-- The Creators, who invent the future out of good ideas. Breaking
ground for others. They are the leaders (reluctant as they may be).
They tend to invest the most. And may or may not be rewarded. They are
of great benefit to a community.

Reactive:
-- The Followers, who build on the sweat of others. They may work to
mimic and can come up short. They may work to improve and take
advantage of opportunity. Their investment may be little (pure
followers) or may be great (advantage takers). Again, they may or may
not be rewarded. They can be of benefit to a community.

Inactive:
-- The Takers, who see opportunity in others work, but lack the
inventiveness to make it better. They combine things. Building out of
the work of others with very little investment. They are usually reward
since they have invested so little. They are anti-community. They
rarely give anything back to the community in return.

The point is that a "community" (apply the term as you please) needs
both the Proactive and the Reactive to thrive. The Reward is subjective
(money, fame, recognition, history). We can not all be The Creators.
Some don't have the means (time, money, knowledge).

It is not bad to build on the work of others. It is necessary. The
Creators may feel taken advantage of in some way. But they must realize
that without them progress can not be achieved. Don't blame the
Followers for following (it's in their nature). But most of all, don't
stop creating because there may be followers.

Dave Thomas and Andy Hunt are leaders in the programming and publishing
community. I for one think that their methods enhance both disciplines.
And I am encouraged that others are following their lead which in the
end benefits us all.

Dale Martenson
http://www.stewdl...

Francis Hwang

1/25/2006 5:46:00 PM

0

SteveC wrote:
> > How many people or companies create anything out of thin air? How much
> > is simply the influence of the extant culture and available technology,
> > and how much is raw innovation? When does influence become "ripping off"?
> >
> > If you take an idea from one person, it's stealing, but imitate what
>
> No, you can't steal but you might infringe.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in...

Ideas can't be copyrighted; only their expression can be copyrighted.

If Pragmatic Press were to apply for intellectual property rights over
their beta books program, the most likely protection would be for a
patent. Not that they've done so--and given the prohibitive cost of
obtaining a patent, and the likely backlash from their
free-software-using customers over becoming yet another patent-wielding
company, and the fact that they likely find such patents personally
distasteful, they're unlikely to do so.

f.

Dave Howell

1/26/2006 7:59:00 AM

0


On Jan 24, 2006, at 7:36, simonh wrote:

> Couldn't post a reply on Daves site so thought i'd post one here. Here
> is post:
>
> http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Random/Imit...

<snort>

We (by which I mean Alexandria Digital Literature) have *had* real-time
royalty statements since 1999. Our "continuous build" system's been
running since 1997, although it's been used for the benefit of the
readers, not the authors. And although we've paid >50% royalties on
gross revenue with many of our authors, I know of more than a few
publishers who've been paying 50% on list for years as well.

I'd rather other publishers were aware of our innovations and expanded
upon them rather than re-inventing the wheel from whole cloth. LOL.


Dave Howell
Founder & Chief Innovator
Alexandria Digital Literature (alexlit.com)
A division of the Seattle Book Company.

Dave Thomas

1/27/2006 7:22:00 AM

0


On Jan 25, 2006, at 9:48, Francis Hwang wrote:

> Ideas can't be copyrighted; only their expression can be copyrighted.
>
> If Pragmatic Press were to apply for intellectual property rights over
> their beta books program, the most likely protection would be for a
> patent. Not that they've done so--and given the prohibitive cost of
> obtaining a patent, and the likely backlash from their
> free-software-using customers over becoming yet another patent-
> wielding
> company, and the fact that they likely find such patents personally
> distasteful, they're unlikely to do so.

The issue isn't folks copying, or who did what when.

For me, the issue is an industry that I value (from well before I did
publishing myself) slowly dying through lack of innovation. When
companies stop innovating, as an industry we stop growing.

My blog post came from a growing sense of frustration with an
industry that seems to have lost its way. I don't want to see
publishing houses I've grown up with going away.


Dave

Alex Combas

1/27/2006 7:54:00 AM

0

On 1/26/06, Dave Thomas <Dave@pragprog.com> wrote:
> The issue isn't folks copying, or who did what when.
>
> For me, the issue is an industry that I value (from well before I did
> publishing myself) slowly dying through lack of innovation. When
> companies stop innovating, as an industry we stop growing.
>
> My blog post came from a growing sense of frustration with an
> industry that seems to have lost its way. I don't want to see
> publishing houses I've grown up with going away.
>
>

Hi Dave,
Well its good to hear you arent aiming for global monopoly! :)

However I must ask you, if as you say various members of "an industry
that seems to have lost its way" mimic your new and bold concepts,
then isn't that a good thing if what you are really concerned
about is the possibility of them "slowly dying through lack of innovation"?

Just something to think about.

--
Alex Combas
http://noodlejunkie.blo...