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comp.lang.ruby

Re: Bruce Eckel and Ruby

Stephen Kellett

12/23/2005 1:09:00 PM

In message <Vh%pf.873$Or5.754@tornado.southeast.rr.com>, Timothy Hunter
<cyclists@nc.rr.com> writes
>Just a thought: a programming language that is free, easy to learn,
>rewards mastery, and has flocks of eager devotees who want to share
>their knowledge for free offers little incentive to a guy who needs to
>earn a living writing and lecturing and teaching and consulting.

Disagree. The type of people that pay his lecturing fees will always be
willing to pay for lectures regardless of language. There are plenty of
people lecturing on the VB circuit.

If anything I'd go the opposite - it provides him with a potentially
larger army of potential attendees at such conferences, especially if
Ruby goes mainstream.

Funny, I read the article Hal referred to this morning and then found
this thread later today. I felt the article kind of didn't say much
other than "there is no reason to change to Ruby if you already know
Python".

As part of our software tool beta tests we talk with software engineers
that use a variety of languages. I was chatting with a very keen beta
tester of a Python flow tracer product and asked if he had tried Ruby as
I preferred it to Python. His answer was that he didn't have the time
(professionally) or time and energy in his private life (father,
husband, etc) to learn Ruby for fun. It would need to be for a
commercial reason and he had none. I guess many in the Python camp won't
change language unless they have a business reason to change.

Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/sof...
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
10 Answers

Gary Wright

12/23/2005 3:47:00 PM

0


On Dec 23, 2005, at 8:32 AM, Stephen Kellett wrote:
> His answer was that he didn't have the time (professionally) or
> time and energy in his private life (father, husband, etc) to learn
> Ruby for fun. It would need to be for a commercial reason and he
> had none. I guess many in the Python camp won't change language
> unless they have a business reason to change.

At one level I understand this point of view. But at the same time, how
difficult is it to read a book? If your professional and personal
life is
so busy that you can't find time to read a book or to learn about a new
topic then I think your priorities need to be re-evaluated. I'm not
saying
that learning Ruby should be on the top of everyone's todo list but I do
think it is important to regularly expose yourself to new ideas for both
your personal and professional health.


Gary Wright

Stephen Kellett

12/23/2005 5:48:00 PM

0

In message <BF0740FD-4249-4BDE-988B-F21CFF764FD5@mac.com>,
gwtmp01@mac.com writes
>At one level I understand this point of view. But at the same time, how
>difficult is it to read a book?

Very, if you are too tired to take it in. If you are busy with work and
have a young family I doubt it would be that easy.

>If your professional and personal life is
>so busy that you can't find time to read a book or to learn about a new
>topic then I think your priorities need to be re-evaluated. I'm not
>saying

Thats an easy statement to make but it ignores each the circumstances
surrounding each person. I agree with you and I'm sure the chap I was
talking with does too, but its clear he has no business reason to go
that route - his time is more effectively spent elsewhere.

I think he'd be more interested in reading about a new technology he can
use without ditching his currently favoured language(s). Which is partly
where Mr Eckel is coming from (referring to Django rather than changing
languages and learning Rails)

Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/sof...
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

Isaac Gouy

12/23/2005 6:05:00 PM

0


Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <BF0740FD-4249-4BDE-988B-F21CFF764FD5@mac.com>,
> gwtmp01@mac.com writes
> >At one level I understand this point of view. But at the same time, how
> >difficult is it to read a book?
>
> Very, if you are too tired to take it in. If you are busy with work and
> have a young family I doubt it would be that easy.
>
> >If your professional and personal life is
> >so busy that you can't find time to read a book or to learn about a new
> >topic then I think your priorities need to be re-evaluated. I'm not
> >saying
>
> Thats an easy statement to make but it ignores each the circumstances
> surrounding each person. I agree with you and I'm sure the chap I was
> talking with does too, but its clear he has no business reason to go
> that route - his time is more effectively spent elsewhere.

Exactly! His time is more effectively spent elsewhere.

When somethings demonstrably >10x "better" we need to learn and change,
otherwise it's probably more effective to build on existing expertise.


>
> I think he'd be more interested in reading about a new technology he can
> use without ditching his currently favoured language(s). Which is partly
> where Mr Eckel is coming from (referring to Django rather than changing
> languages and learning Rails)
>
> Stephen
> --
> Stephen Kellett
> Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/sof...
> Computer Consultancy, Software Development
> Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

Kevin Brown

12/23/2005 6:25:00 PM

0

On Friday 23 December 2005 11:57, Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <BF0740FD-4249-4BDE-988B-F21CFF764FD5@mac.com>,
> gwtmp01@mac.com writes
>
> >At one level I understand this point of view. But at the same time, how
> >difficult is it to read a book?
>
> Very, if you are too tired to take it in. If you are busy with work and
> have a young family I doubt it would be that easy.

And honestly, if the guy doesn't want to learn Ruby, that's fine, I certainly
don't want to learn Python, but I don't claim that I've tried either.

Ryan Leavengood

12/23/2005 7:16:00 PM

0

On 12/23/05, Kevin Brown <blargity@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And honestly, if the guy doesn't want to learn Ruby, that's fine, I certainly
> don't want to learn Python, but I don't claim that I've tried either.

Yeah that is the thing: if you are happy with what you have and trying
something new doesn't give you some measurable benefit, then don't
worry about it. I really can't begrudge Bruce Eckel or others with
this kind of opinion.

But still, I do agree with the Pragmatic Programmer advice of trying a
new language each year to keep your mind fresh and to give you new
ideas on how to use your favorite or most-used language in better
ways. Maybe for Pythonistas the differences in Ruby aren't enough to
warrant them learning it. Same with us Rubyists when it comes to
learning Python.

Though I have done some Python and the significant whitespace and
"tacked-on" feeling of object-orientation left a bad taste in my
mouth. For me, Ruby fits better. For others, Python is a better fit,
and that is fine.

Ryan

Gary Wright

12/23/2005 8:05:00 PM

0


On Dec 23, 2005, at 12:57 PM, Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <BF0740FD-4249-4BDE-988B-F21CFF764FD5@mac.com>,
> gwtmp01@mac.com writes
>> At one level I understand this point of view. But at the same
>> time, how
>> difficult is it to read a book?
>
> Very, if you are too tired to take it in. If you are busy with work
> and have a young family I doubt it would be that easy.

It really scares me to hear that people don't have time to read.
Even 10 minutes in bed before you nod off is better than nothing.
Note, I didn't say that *Ruby* should be at the top of your list but
I really do think it is important to find time to read.

I wasn't trying trying to make a point about Ruby but instead just
a general point about finding time to read in order to know what
is going on in your industry, your community, and the world.

One of the questions I ask in interviews is what sort of professional
development the applicant has pursued. Web sites they read, magazines
they follow, books they learned from and so on. If I get a blank
stare or something about being too busy for that....

Gary Wright

Chad Perrin

12/23/2005 10:38:00 PM

0

On Sat, Dec 24, 2005 at 05:04:41AM +0900, gwtmp01@mac.com wrote:
>
> It really scares me to hear that people don't have time to read.
> Even 10 minutes in bed before you nod off is better than nothing.
> Note, I didn't say that *Ruby* should be at the top of your list but
> I really do think it is important to find time to read.

I couldn't agree more.

Still, sometimes I go three days without reading anything. I make up
for it on the days I read for several hours. It probably helps that I
don't spend any of my free time doing things like watching football or
Survivor, though.


>
> One of the questions I ask in interviews is what sort of professional
> development the applicant has pursued. Web sites they read, magazines
> they follow, books they learned from and so on. If I get a blank
> stare or something about being too busy for that....

Careful who you ask that of. Give me a chance to hold forth on a
subject like that, and you might not be able to shut me up.

--
Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.ap... ]

unix virus: If you're using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.

Isaac Gouy

12/23/2005 10:44:00 PM

0


gwtmp01@mac.com wrote:
> On Dec 23, 2005, at 12:57 PM, Stephen Kellett wrote:
> > In message <BF0740FD-4249-4BDE-988B-F21CFF764FD5@mac.com>,
> > gwtmp01@mac.com writes
> >> At one level I understand this point of view. But at the same
> >> time, how
> >> difficult is it to read a book?
> >
> > Very, if you are too tired to take it in. If you are busy with work
> > and have a young family I doubt it would be that easy.
>
> It really scares me to hear that people don't have time to read.
> Even 10 minutes in bed before you nod off is better than nothing.
> Note, I didn't say that *Ruby* should be at the top of your list but
> I really do think it is important to find time to read.
>
> I wasn't trying trying to make a point about Ruby but instead just
> a general point about finding time to read in order to know what
> is going on in your industry, your community, and the world.
>
> One of the questions I ask in interviews is what sort of professional
> development the applicant has pursued. Web sites they read, magazines
> they follow, books they learned from and so on. If I get a blank
> stare or something about being too busy for that....
>
> Gary Wright

Rather than yet more technical knowledge, the area that frequently
needs improvement is skill in communicating and working with others -
so maybe if they read "How the way we talk can change the way we work"
or "Difficult Conversations: How to discuss what matters most" or
"One-to-One in the Workplace"

ChrisF

12/26/2005 5:59:00 PM

0

On 12/23/05, gwtmp01@mac.com <gwtmp01@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2005, at 8:32 AM, Stephen Kellett wrote:
> > His answer was that he didn't have the time (professionally) or
> > time and energy in his private life (father, husband, etc) to learn
> > Ruby for fun. It would need to be for a commercial reason and he
> > had none. I guess many in the Python camp won't change language
> > unless they have a business reason to change.
>
> At one level I understand this point of view. But at the same time, how
> difficult is it to read a book? If your professional and personal
> life is
> so busy that you can't find time to read a book or to learn about a new
> topic then I think your priorities need to be re-evaluated. I'm not
> saying
> that learning Ruby should be on the top of everyone's todo list but I do
> think it is important to regularly expose yourself to new ideas for both
> your personal and professional health.
>
>
> Gary Wright



Listen, people have lives outside of programming. And not everybody is
an emotional fanboy with the latest perceived toy. There was no compelling
reason to learn Ruby.

Gary Wright

12/26/2005 6:54:00 PM

0


On Dec 26, 2005, at 12:58 PM, Chris Ferrell wrote:
> Listen, people have lives outside of programming. And not
> everybody is
> an emotional fanboy with the latest perceived toy. There was no
> compelling
> reason to learn Ruby.

I was responding to the idea that the only reason to read or learn
about something new was for an immediate 'commercial reason'. My point
was not that Ruby had to be that new thing but that discovering what is
commercially relevant does actually require reading and learning about
things outside of your immediate situation. As an employer, I
encouraged
that sort of thing within the context of the job and not as some sort of
extra-credit homework.

Clearly I'm opining from a distance without any real knowledge of the
*specific* situation but it was the *general* sentiment that I was
responding
to.


Gary Wright