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comp.lang.ruby

Re: injecting dynamic methods into a class

MenTaLguY

12/7/2005 3:15:00 PM

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 14:23 +0900, dblack@wobblini.net wrote:
> I don't think it's necessary to pigeon-hole Ruby philosophically.

I mainly intended to raise the question of whether bringing social
obligation into the discussion that way was really appropriate. It
tends to be poisonous in technical forums.

> It's worth noting that a result of Matz's style of development, as
> well as the contributions of the community, there actually aren't very
> many things in the language that are vulnerable to this kind of
> treatment. Singleton classes seem to be the magnet for it.

There are two reasons for this: one, the name is one of the few aspects
of Ruby which people are fairly consistently unhappy with, and secondly,
it's an issue of human linguistics rather than of the programming
language.

I think we should expect an issue of human language to be resolved in
the fashion natural to it, rather than the more "up-front" and
centralized fashion typical for programming language issues.

(Of course, as noted elsewhere, I am a staunch linguistic descriptivist.
So perhaps that colors my thinking.)

> > I'm not a Taoist, but I think the notion of "striving-without-striving"
> > describes the necessary ethic nicely. Relax. This is not about control
> > or respect or disrespect or the Ultimate Fate of Ruby.
>
> Right -- it's about what to call singleton classes, and I wish people
> would discuss it and then let Matz decide.

I think that's what people are doing, basically. That discussion is
simply going to be accomplished a bit differently than it would be for a
feature of the programming language itself. The negotiation of new
human vocabulary involves trying alternatives in the real world and
seeing what sticks.

Based on Matz's most recent post, it sounds like that's what he's
waiting for too.

-mental
7 Answers

Ryan Leavengood

12/7/2005 5:17:00 PM

0

Here we go again with the endless discussion threads. I guess most of
you know my feelings on these threads based on a post not too long
ago, but I can't help but be sucked into this one too.

Firstly, in general I agree with David that we are on a slippery slope
with everyone using their own favorite singleton class synonym. For
that matter I'll bring my own favorite, shadow class, back into the
fray and muddy the waters more. All these terms will definitely
confuse newcomers and possibly even old hats, and it is sort of
annoying having to "translate" all the time.

But at the same time, I'm not sure how else these terms can be tested
out without actually using them. It seems Matz is sort of just waiting
and seeing what happens, which isn't a bad philosophy, but can
certainly result in some impatience and certain people trying to
impose their own standards on other people.

So with that wishy-washy essay out of the way, let me conclude with
some advice for Trans: I'm not sure if you realize it, but at least
from my perspective (and I'm sure others), I see you as some kind of
Ruby traitor, trying to subvert it from within. I would say "rebel",
but I don't think that conveys enough negativity. Every week it seems
like there is some thread spawned by you discussing the merits of some
massive change to Ruby. While in general this may not be a bad thing,
with the frequency I see it I can't help but automatically dismiss
much of what you say. Even a lot of the good work you have done on
Facets or Nano or Mega or Calibre or whatever it is called can be
dismissed because of the name changes and disorganization I've just
indicated. As harsh as this paragraph is, I don't mean it as a "screw
you Trans" type of thing, just an indication that is how at least one
person percieves you, and for most people, perception is reality.

Ryan


Trans

12/7/2005 6:03:00 PM

0

A Ruby TRAITOR? Because I offer up opinions, options and interesting
new ideas that arn't status quo?

Ah forget it. It aint worth it any more. You win Ryan. I repent.

Adhoc
Module method inheritance
Core versioning support
AOP Cuts
Using core for tech discussions
Perfecting the organization of Facets/Calibre
Yes, the list goes on....

But all terrible terrible things! How evil I am for even mentioning
them, let alone actually trying to do them. Ugh, what a turncoat I have
been, an enemy of the Ruby state! Down witht he evil trans. Kill him.
KILL HIM!!!

Ryan Leavengood

12/7/2005 6:33:00 PM

0

ROFL. OK maybe traitor was a bit too dramatic. But this response was
worth it. ;)

Let's just try to find the middle ground between generally useful Ruby
changes and changes just because someone thinks they are cool.

Just so you know since I've been so "anti-Trans" in the past I plan to
look over Calibre and write about some of the gems (pun-intended) in
there.

Ryan

On 12/7/05, Trans <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
> A Ruby TRAITOR? Because I offer up opinions, options and interesting
> new ideas that arn't status quo?
>
> Ah forget it. It aint worth it any more. You win Ryan. I repent.
>
> Adhoc
> Module method inheritance
> Core versioning support
> AOP Cuts
> Using core for tech discussions
> Perfecting the organization of Facets/Calibre
> Yes, the list goes on....
>
> But all terrible terrible things! How evil I am for even mentioning
> them, let alone actually trying to do them. Ugh, what a turncoat I have
> been, an enemy of the Ruby state! Down witht he evil trans. Kill him.
> KILL HIM!!!


Robert Klemme

12/7/2005 6:43:00 PM

0

Ryan Leavengood <leavengood@gmail.com> wrote:

> Firstly, in general I agree with David that we are on a slippery slope
> with everyone using their own favorite singleton class synonym. For
> that matter I'll bring my own favorite, shadow class, back into the
> fray and muddy the waters more. All these terms will definitely
> confuse newcomers and possibly even old hats, and it is sort of
> annoying having to "translate" all the time.

You just made a case for sticking to "singleton class". :-)) I for my part
stick with the old fashioned but well established term. My 0.02EUR...

Kind regards

robert

dblack

12/7/2005 7:04:00 PM

0

Trans

12/8/2005 2:33:00 AM

0

> Just so you know since I've been so "anti-Trans" in the past I plan to
> look over Calibre and write about some of the gems (pun-intended) in
> there.

Hey, thanks. That would be great! I hope you find some the "gems"
useful.

T.

Trans

12/8/2005 2:36:00 AM

0

> Just so you know since I've been so "anti-Trans" in the past I plan to
> look over Calibre and write about some of the gems (pun-intended) in
> there.

Cool thanks. I hope you find a "gem" of use to you.

T.