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[EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Ruby Helps?

Ilias Lazaridis

2/3/2005 7:29:00 AM

"
A cooperation between Sun Microsystems and IBM&Co. in conjunction with
liberal & high evolutive communities would result in an nearly
unbeatable programming platform.

My evaluation has shown: this is a non achievable goal, as stubborness
and egoism rules - instead of reason and cooperation.

Thus I leave all those ridiculous folks behind, which will continue to
do an excellent job in keeping the very promising JAVA platform far
below the technological level it could be
"

-

"
Of course It's a sad day.

Censorship (NetBeans, Eclipse) has forced me to move.

No platform is _really_ open, thus I cannot build on them:

http://laz.../core/project...
"

-

"I'm sure there is one community out there which will realize immediatly
the benefits of an high-evolutive system. "

-

source: [messages within thread]

[JAVA] [EVALUATION] - The Java Failure (Sorry: The Java(tm) Failure)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/msg/ae6315...

-
-
-

During the 6 months evaluation i've extracted several constructs.

"How it should be to become high evolutive"

-

I don't know Ruby.

Basicly I would like to do everything in C++.

But development must go quicker.

-

Possibly it's time to structure Ruby projects in a way similar to
Sun's Java, NetBeans and especially IBM&Co's Eclipse (but of course more
efficient and evolutive):

http://laz.../case/ide/project/...

www.osgi.org and similar standards should (whenever possible) be used.

Companies in the Embedded World should be intrested in an Ruby osgi
implementation.

[Note: i've not verified technical and legal applicability]

-

osgi is just a detail.

The goal would be: to make a high competitive andhigh evolutive
programming platform / Rich Client Platform based on Ruby.

-

My question is essentially:

How many of those constructs are already supported by Ruby (and the
surrounding open-source-projects):

http://laz.../case/stack/...

-

I'll be possibly for some time off-line, as the evaluation has brought
me to my financial limits, thus i'm loosing my phone-line in a few hours.

I'll try to communicate via internet-cafe, but cannot promise this.

-

Please notify the people within the relevant Ruby communities about
this thread.

.

--
http://laz...
85 Answers

Kaspar Schiess

2/3/2005 11:05:00 AM

0

Hello Ilias,

Welcome to the Ruby language.

Your post tells a tale of a lot of personal frustration and of a lot of
conflicts with people in other open source communities. While I certainly
see what you are talking about in your message (although it is rather
long and requires some in depth reading), I cannot share your vision of
things. I don't think the Java community is entirely bad and the way it
has reacted to you cannot entirely be blamed on them. Wanting to say: You
have a very upfront way of dealing with things that some people might
understand as an offense.

> My question is essentially:
>
> How many of those constructs are already supported by Ruby (and the
> surrounding open-source-projects):
>
> http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/...

and

> I don't know Ruby.
>
> Basicly I would like to do everything in C++.
>
> But development must go quicker.

give me mixed feelings about what to answer you. Yes, Ruby possibly
supports a great many of the things you mention, but if it does not, that
would be the time to learn Ruby and build some things yourself. That's
the way it works - you can't demand things to be built. Some of us are in
on this on daytime jobs, but most of us do this for free - so the phrase
'developement must go quicker' is really useless.

Not offering any advice here apart from that, since I don't want to
thread loose another long discussion about how things should be 'run'.

Please be assured of my best intentions,
kaspar

hand manufactured code - www.tua.ch/ruby

Hal E. Fulton

2/3/2005 11:14:00 AM

0

Kaspar Schiess wrote:

>
>>I don't know Ruby.
>>
>>Basicly I would like to do everything in C++.
>>
>>But development must go quicker.
>
>
> give me mixed feelings about what to answer you. Yes, Ruby possibly
> supports a great many of the things you mention, but if it does not, that
> would be the time to learn Ruby and build some things yourself. That's
> the way it works - you can't demand things to be built. Some of us are in
> on this on daytime jobs, but most of us do this for free - so the phrase
> 'developement must go quicker' is really useless.

Kaspar,

I agree with most of what you say here.

I think however that when he said "development must go quicker" he meant
that his own development must be quicker than he can manage in C++ (hence
the interest in Ruby).


Cheers,
Hal

Kaspar Schiess

2/3/2005 11:40:00 AM

0

(In response to news:4202075B.2080206@hypermetrics.com by Hal Fulton)

> I think however that when he said "development must go quicker" he meant
> that his own development must be quicker than he can manage in C++ (hence
> the interest in Ruby).

Seen like this the phrase makes of course sense. I stand corrected.

kaspar

hand manufactured code - www.tua.ch/ruby

Ilias Lazaridis

2/5/2005 1:54:00 PM

0

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]
> My question is essentially:
>
> How many of those constructs are already supported by Ruby (and the
> surrounding open-source-projects):
>
> http://laz.../case/stack/...
[...]

Can please some community member has the gentleness to give me an answer
on this?

The evaluation sequence is a very standard case, thus your answers will
be usable to other newcomers, too (e.g. if you create a
ruby-real-live-quick-start-document):

http://laz.../case/stack/...#evaluation

.

--
http://laz...

Ilias Lazaridis

2/13/2005 5:22:00 PM

0

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]
> My question is essentially:
>
> How many of those constructs are already supported by Ruby (and the
> surrounding open-source-projects):
>
> http://laz.../case/stack/...
[...]

From the communities behaviour, I extract the following answer:

"
Ruby is not what you are searching for. It is not capable to replace
JAVA and it's large base of libraries and open source system
implementations.

The existent Ruby tools cannot produce the defined stack, which
essentially describes some form of an coherent open-source MDA (Model
Driven Architecture) implementation.

Ruby is for having fun - but not for producing serious large scale
distributed applications.

Otherwise the people here would have simply answered: welcome, pick
this, this and this, add this and this and your stack is ready.
"

.

--
http://laz...

Sam Roberts

2/13/2005 9:51:00 PM

0

Quoteing ilias@lazaridis.com, on Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 02:24:57AM +0900:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> [...]
> >My question is essentially:
> >
> >How many of those constructs are already supported by Ruby (and the
> >surrounding open-source-projects):
> >
> >http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/...
> [...]
>
> From the communities behaviour, I extract the following answer:

I would extract this:

You have a project. You need to evaluate tools for your project. Other
people are not going to do this evaluation for you.

If I told you "ruby and its libs will do everything you want", what
would you do then? Believe me, somebody you know nothing about? Start a
major coding effort, based on free advice?

Cheers,
Sam

Douglas Livingstone

2/14/2005 12:20:00 AM

0

> From the communities behaviour, I extract the following answer:

I don't really understand what your question is, so I can't help you.

The way you have random dashes dots and quotation marks in your post
makes me think that you do not take your questions seriously, it looks
like one of those v!&gr@ messages.

Parhaps if you clearly stated what it is you are looking for you might
get a better response. From here, it sounds like you don't know what
you want and you don't want to know what is on offer. It is quite
difficult to try and solve those problems without being you.

Douglas

Ilias Lazaridis

2/14/2005 8:20:00 AM

0

Douglas Livingstone wrote:
>> From the communities behaviour, I extract the following answer:
>
>
> I don't really understand what your question is, so I can't help you.
>
> The way you have random dashes dots and quotation marks in your post
> makes me think that you do not take your questions seriously, it looks
> like one of those v!&gr@ messages.
>
> Parhaps if you clearly stated what it is you are looking for you might
> get a better response. From here, it sounds like you don't know what
> you want and you don't want to know what is on offer. It is quite
> difficult to try and solve those problems without being you.

We are humans.

Thus we can ask, if we don't understand something.

Please let me know which point you've not understood.

the described system:

http://laz.../case/stack/...

describes mostly state-of-the-art integrated commercial development
systems, nothing more.

I just want to know, which of the constructs are supported within the
ruby world: which systems exist and which would I have to implement myself.

> Douglas

.

--
http://laz...

Ilias Lazaridis

2/14/2005 8:23:00 AM

0

Sam Roberts wrote:
> Quoteing ilias@lazaridis.com, on Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 02:24:57AM +0900:
[...]
> I would extract this:
>
> You have a project. You need to evaluate tools for your project. Other
> people are not going to do this evaluation for you.
>
> If I told you "ruby and its libs will do everything you want", what
> would you do then? Believe me, somebody you know nothing about? Start a
> major coding effort, based on free advice?

Please do not disrupt the obious context.

I (a newcomer) ask the community about existing systems.

This is really nothing special.

It helps me, it helps the community.

"
Can please some community member has the gentleness to give me an answer
on this?

The evaluation sequence is a very standard case, thus your answers will
be usable to other newcomers, too (e.g. if you create a
ruby-real-live-quick-start-document):

http://laz.../case/stack/index.html#...
"

.

--
http://laz...

Luke Graham

2/14/2005 8:44:00 AM

0

From the link - "fictive technology collection". Ive worked on some of
those too ;)


On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:35:09 +0900, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:
> Douglas Livingstone wrote:
> >> From the communities behaviour, I extract the following answer:
> >
> >
> > I don't really understand what your question is, so I can't help you.
> >
> > The way you have random dashes dots and quotation marks in your post
> > makes me think that you do not take your questions seriously, it looks
> > like one of those v!&gr@ messages.
> >
> > Parhaps if you clearly stated what it is you are looking for you might
> > get a better response. From here, it sounds like you don't know what
> > you want and you don't want to know what is on offer. It is quite
> > difficult to try and solve those problems without being you.
>
> We are humans.
>
> Thus we can ask, if we don't understand something.
>
> Please let me know which point you've not understood.
>
> the described system:
>
> http://laz.../case/stack/...
>
> describes mostly state-of-the-art integrated commercial development
> systems, nothing more.
>
> I just want to know, which of the constructs are supported within the
> ruby world: which systems exist and which would I have to implement myself.
>
> > Douglas
>
> ..
>
> --
> http://laz...
>
>