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[ANNOUNCE] Ruby Flow Tracer

Stephen Kellett

12/19/2004 2:32:00 PM

Ruby Bug Validator, a flow tracing tool for Ruby.

This tool is now in beta.

http://www.softwareverify.com/rubyBugValidator/...

Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.d...
RSI Information: http://www.objmedia.d.../rsi.html
15 Answers

dh

2/11/2009 7:15:00 PM

0

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:34:00 -0900, Azure <laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:

>dh@. wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:52:40 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>>
>> >"Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message news:gmnpb8$c76$1@news.motzarella.org...
>> >>
>> >> <dh@.> wrote in message news:37rto4lcigs4hvvflqdpltdb08gi8ihub3@4ax.com...
>
>>
>> Neither of us would exist if humans had never begun to eat meat.
>
>
>That is a "Hypothisis", which can not be proven.

ALL evidence suggests it is true.

dh

2/16/2009 5:26:00 PM

0

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:56:23 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:

><dh@.> wrote in message news:4696p4tiss8mr8cehv44ci7i6uvk04594p@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:31:51 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>>
>> ><dh@.> wrote in message news:no53p4hhk0jqleskd50r8ri1k2u1c5il74@4ax.com...
>> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:46:52 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> >..
>> >> >'The fact that horses were domesticated before they were reintroduced matters
>> >> >little from a biological viewpoint. They are the same species that originated here,
>> >>
>> >> What happened to them?
>> >
>> >'The genus Equus, which includes modern horses, zebras, and asses, is the
>> >only surviving genus in a once diverse family of horses that included 27 genera.
>> >The precise date of origin for the genus Equus is unknown, but evidence
>> >documents the dispersal of Equus from North America to Eurasia approximately
>> >2-3 million years ago
>>
>> So they left without any influence from humans. They don't belong there...
>
>They migrated back and forth.

Obviously they left.

>There was a land bridge at that time.

Then that's probably what they used to leave.

>> >and a possible origin at about 3.4-3.9 million years ago.
>> >Following this original emigration, several extinctions occurred in North America,
>> >with additional migrations to Asia (presumably across the Bering Land Bridge),
>> >and return migrations back to North America, over time. The last North American
>> >extinction occurred between 13,000 and 11,000 years ago.[1] Had it not been for
>> >previous westward migration, over the land bridge, into northwestern Russia
>> >(Siberia) and Asia, the horse would have faced complete extinction. However,
>> >Equus survived and spread to all continents of the globe, except Australia and
>> >Antarctica.
>> >..'
>> >http://www.wildhorsespirit.org/3-2-2005_WH_Native_Species_Scientific-MetaAn...
>> >
>> >-restore context-
>> >- 'The fact that horses were domesticated before they were reintroduced matters
>> >- little from a biological viewpoint. They are the same species that originated here,
>> >> >and whether or not they were domesticated is quite irrelevant.
>> >>
>> >> If that's the case then it's okay for domesticated horses and cattle etc to
>> >> exist instead.
>> >
>> >It doesn't follow.
>>
>> Sure it does. If it matters little that the horses were domesticated, then it
>> matters little that sheep, cattle, etc are domesticated too. They all live for
>> whatever reason they do, including those humans raise deliberately.
>
>'Livestock grazing seriously impacts wild ungulates such as elk, bighorn sheep,
>and pronghorn through forage competition, disease transmission, social
>displacement, habitat degradation, and plant community alteration. On the
>majority of public lands, more forage is allotted to livestock than to native large
>herbivores. Whereas native species are an integral part of the ecosystems in
>which they have evolved, alien, domestic animals represent a denial and violation
>of ecological integrity.
>....'
>http://www.publiclandsranching.org/htmlres/wr_bison_...
>
>> >But clearly you would be happy to replace all free-living
>> >wildlife with a few species of dominated animals
>>
>> No. I would be happy to see both, which is what we're seeing.
>
>Wildlife in serious trouble everywhere, is what we're seeing.

Most of the problem I've read about is because people cut
down forests to grow crops, but they depleat the quality of the
soil in just a few seasons to the point all that can be grown is
grass, so then they raise livestock since they can no longer
grow the crops they cut trees down so they could grow to
begin with.

>> >for your "meat and gravy".
>
>Unsupported SPAM snipped.

Everything I share with you people is true afaik, including
and quite significantly the things you hate the most.

dh

2/16/2009 5:26:00 PM

0

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:07:27 -0900, Azure <laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:

>dh@. wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:31:51 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>>
>> ><dh@.> wrote in message news:no53p4hhk0jqleskd50r8ri1k2u1c5il74@4ax.com...
>> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:46:52 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> >..
>> >> >'The fact that horses were domesticated before they were reintroduced matters
>> >> >little from a biological viewpoint. They are the same species that originated here,
>> >>
>> >> What happened to them?
>> >
>> >'The genus Equus, which includes modern horses, zebras, and asses, is the
>> >only surviving genus in a once diverse family of horses that included 27 genera.
>> >The precise date of origin for the genus Equus is unknown, but evidence
>> >documents the dispersal of Equus from North America to Eurasia approximately
>> >2-3 million years ago
>>
>> So they left without any influence from humans. They don't belong there...
>>
>> >and a possible origin at about 3.4-3.9 million years ago.
>> >Following this original emigration, several extinctions occurred in North America,
>> >with additional migrations to Asia (presumably across the Bering Land Bridge),
>> >and return migrations back to North America, over time. The last North American
>> >extinction occurred between 13,000 and 11,000 years ago.[1] Had it not been for
>> >previous westward migration, over the land bridge, into northwestern Russia
>> >(Siberia) and Asia, the horse would have faced complete extinction. However,
>> >Equus survived and spread to all continents of the globe, except Australia and
>> >Antarctica.
>> >..'
>> >http://www.wildhorsespirit.org/3-2-2005_WH_Native_Species_Scientific-MetaAn...
>> >
>> >-restore context-
>> >- 'The fact that horses were domesticated before they were reintroduced matters
>> >- little from a biological viewpoint. They are the same species that originated here,
>> >> >and whether or not they were domesticated is quite irrelevant.
>> >>
>> >> If that's the case then it's okay for domesticated horses and cattle etc to
>> >> exist instead.
>> >
>> >It doesn't follow.
>>
>> Sure it does. If it matters little that the horses were domesticated, then it
>> matters little that sheep, cattle, etc are domesticated too. They all live for
>> whatever reason they do, including those humans raise deliberately.
>>
>> >But clearly you would be happy to replace all free-living
>> >wildlife with a few species of dominated animals
>>
>> No. I would be happy to see both, which is what we're seeing.
>>
>> >for your "meat and gravy".
>>
>> ? Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
>> wood and paper products,
>
>They kill just as much as any beef eater if that is your point.

You're part of it.

>Gotta kill the flower, to get the carrot.

And the mole, and the mouse, and the rabbit....

dh

2/16/2009 5:31:00 PM

0

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:31:51 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:

><dh@.> wrote in message news:us86p49mv1i3tf8hh7on7v4ubvtuh9t9cs@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:31:40 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>>
>> ><dh@.> wrote in message news:5j53p4tbpb9qgov5108qk5vglai2qq7pli@4ax.com...
>> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 17:47:06 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message news:pq70p4h1t1gltjvgccf0lpgf4soiesm1ho@4ax.com...
>> >> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:52:40 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >"Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message news:gmnpb8$c76$1@news.motzarella.org...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> <dh@.> wrote in message news:37rto4lcigs4hvvflqdpltdb08gi8ihub3@4ax.com...
>> >> >> >..
>> >> >> >> > Your selfishness towards wildlife
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >'Mustangs
>> >> >> >Spirit of the Shrinking West
>> >> >> >National Geographic
>> >> >> >February 2009
>> >> >> >...
>> >> >> >"Wild horses are right in the middle of a culture that wants nothing to do
>> >> >> >with them," said Jay Kirkpatrick, director of science and conservation
>> >> >> >biology at ZooMontana, in Billings, a center for the development of
>> >> >> >contraceptives for wildlife.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why do you think we should encourage life for wild horses, but not
>> >> >> for domestic horses, cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, turkeys, etc...?
>> >> >
>> >> >Why leave wild species alone?
>> >>
>> >> Why do you want wild animals to live instead of domestic ones,
>> >> and why do you think everyone else should too?
>> >
>> >Maybe you'll 'get' this:
>> >
>> >'Biodiversity and Ecosystem Functioning: Maintaining Natural Life Support
>> >Processes
>> >..
>> >Critical processes at the ecosystem level influence plant productivity,
>> >soil fertility, water quality, atmospheric chemistry, and many other local
>> >and global environmental conditions that ultimately affect human welfare.
>> >
>> >These ecosystem processes are controlled by both the diversity and identity
>> >of the plant, animal, and microbial species living within a community.
>> >Human modifications to the living community in an ecosystem - as well as
>> >to the collective biodiversity of the earth - can therefore alter ecological
>> >functions and life support services that are vital to the well-being of human
>> >societies. Substantial changes have already occurred, especially local and
>> >global losses of biodiversity. The primary cause has been widespread
>> >human transformation of once highly diverse natural ecosystems into
>> >relatively species-poor managed ecosystems. Recent studies suggest that
>> >such reductions in biodiversity can alter both the magnitude and the stability
>> >of ecosystem processes, especially when biodiversity is reduced to the low
>> >levels typical of many managed systems.
>> >
>> >Our review of the available evidence has identified the following certainties
>> >concerning biodiversity and ecosystem functioning:
>> >
>> ># Human impacts on global biodiversity have been dramatic, resulting in
>> >unprecedented losses in global biodiversity at all levels, from genes and
>> >species to entire ecosystems;
>> >
>> ># Local declines in biodiversity are even more dramatic than global
>> >declines, and the beneficial effects of many organisms on local
>> >processes are lost long before the species become globally extinct;
>> >
>> ># Many ecosystem processes are sensitive to declines in biodiversity;
>> >
>> ># Changes in the identity and abundance of species in an ecosystem can be
>> >as important as changes in biodiversity in influencing ecosystem processes.
>> >
>> >From current research, we have identified the following impacts on
>> >ecosystem functioning that often result from loss of biodiversity:
>> >
>> ># Plant production may decline as regional and local diversity declines;
>> >
>> ># Ecosystem resistance to environmental perturbations, such as drought,
>> >may be lessened as biodiversity is reduced;
>> >
>> ># Ecosystem processes such as soil nitrogen levels, water use, plant
>> >productivity, and pest and disease cycles may become more variable as
>> >diversity declines.
>> >
>> >Given its importance to human welfare, the maintenance of ecosystem
>> >functioning should be included as an integral part of national and
>> >international policies designed to conserve local and global biodiversity.
>> >..'
>> >http://www.epa.gov/watertrain/pdf/...
>> >
>> >> >Haven't you done enough harm already?
>> >> >
>> >> >How can you think decimating/exterminating these horses and other wild
>> >> >species just to satisfy your selfish and unhealthy desire to eat the flesh of
>> >> >domesticated cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, turkeys, etc... is acceptable?
>> >>
>> >> It allows those animals to live for one thing.
>> >
>> >And wildlife be damned, eh.
>>
>> I'm in favor of domestic animals and wildlife both. You're in favor
>> of wildlife only so you pretend, yet you also pretend to keep domestic
>> animals which would mean wildlife be damned if you did/do so...
>
>The wildlife eat most of the grain thrown out for the chickens...

I don't believe that bull shit, and neither do you.

>You say you're 'in favor' of wildlife, while smashing heads in...

I wasn't in favor of the ones I smashed.

>> >We get it.. "obtaining meat and gravy are at
>> >least two reasons to promote life for farm animals", - dh@. 22 Mar 2006.
>>
>> They are two reasons regardless of how much it disturbs
>> you that billions of animals live because of them.
>
>The two reasons for widespread habitat destruction and death.

The same is true of eating crops. The difference is that meat
consumers contribute to the lives of some of the animals they
contribute to the deaths of, while vegans only contribute to deaths.

dh

2/16/2009 5:32:00 PM

0

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:02:57 -0900, Azure <laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:

>dh@. wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:34:00 -0900, Azure <laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:
>>
>> >dh@. wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:52:40 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >"Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message news:gmnpb8$c76$1@news.motzarella.org...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> <dh@.> wrote in message news:37rto4lcigs4hvvflqdpltdb08gi8ihub3@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Neither of us would exist if humans had never begun to eat meat.
>> >
>> >
>> >That is a "Hypothisis", which can not be proven.
>>
>> ALL evidence suggests it is true.
>
>All "YOUR" evidence.

All YOUR evidence as well. In fact as I pointed out: ALL evidence
suggests it is true.

Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole

2/17/2009 6:18:00 AM

0

dh@. the Sock Puppet Liar, wrote:
>
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:11:59 -0900, Azure <laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:
>
> >dh@. wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:09:17 -0900, Azure <laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> >pearl wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> clearly you would be happy to replace all free-living
> >> >> wildlife with a few species of dominated animals for your "meat and gravy".
> >> >
> >> >Yep.
> >> >He sure would.
> >>
> >> No. I want to see both,
> >
> >Lair.
>
> That's a lie. What do you feel like you gain from telling a lie like
> that, do you know?
>
> >which is what we're seeing.
> >
> >No,
>
> Yes we most certainly are, so you lied again.
>
> >we are seeing man replace Nature with Cash Commodities
>
> Which you contribute to like everyone else does.
>
> >so he can maintain slaves.
>
> Some livestock have lives of positive value and some have
> lives of negative value, not that the distinction could mean
> anything to a person like yourself. How could it?
>
> > I'm also aware
> >
> >Not much.
> >
> >> the humans are going to take things over to the point that they pretty
> >> much have control over which animals live where, including wildlife
> >> as well as domestic animals. It's already happening and I believe it
> >> has the potential to be a good thing,
> >
> >I disagree,
>
> You are an extreme fanatic, whether you can accept the fact or
> you deny it like your other denials.
>
> >I think Wolves have a Right to hunt, before you have a right
> >to destroy them so they can't eat.
>
> I'm in favor of human hunters who are more humane and
> easier on the animals they hunt,

Kill Nature, leaves more for you to kill!

Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole

2/17/2009 6:19:00 AM

0

dh@. wrote:
>
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:07:27 -0900, Azure <laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:
>
> >dh@. wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:31:51 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> >>
> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message news:no53p4hhk0jqleskd50r8ri1k2u1c5il74@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:46:52 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> >> >..
> >> >> >'The fact that horses were domesticated before they were reintroduced matters
> >> >> >little from a biological viewpoint. They are the same species that originated here,
> >> >>
> >> >> What happened to them?
> >> >
> >> >'The genus Equus, which includes modern horses, zebras, and asses, is the
> >> >only surviving genus in a once diverse family of horses that included 27 genera.
> >> >The precise date of origin for the genus Equus is unknown, but evidence
> >> >documents the dispersal of Equus from North America to Eurasia approximately
> >> >2-3 million years ago
> >>
> >> So they left without any influence from humans. They don't belong there...
> >>
> >> >and a possible origin at about 3.4-3.9 million years ago.
> >> >Following this original emigration, several extinctions occurred in North America,
> >> >with additional migrations to Asia (presumably across the Bering Land Bridge),
> >> >and return migrations back to North America, over time. The last North American
> >> >extinction occurred between 13,000 and 11,000 years ago.[1] Had it not been for
> >> >previous westward migration, over the land bridge, into northwestern Russia
> >> >(Siberia) and Asia, the horse would have faced complete extinction. However,
> >> >Equus survived and spread to all continents of the globe, except Australia and
> >> >Antarctica.
> >> >..'
> >> >http://www.wildhorsespirit.org/3-2-2005_WH_Native_Species_Scientific-MetaAn...
> >> >
> >> >-restore context-
> >> >- 'The fact that horses were domesticated before they were reintroduced matters
> >> >- little from a biological viewpoint. They are the same species that originated here,
> >> >> >and whether or not they were domesticated is quite irrelevant.
> >> >>
> >> >> If that's the case then it's okay for domesticated horses and cattle etc to
> >> >> exist instead.
> >> >
> >> >It doesn't follow.
> >>
> >> Sure it does. If it matters little that the horses were domesticated, then it
> >> matters little that sheep, cattle, etc are domesticated too. They all live for
> >> whatever reason they do, including those humans raise deliberately.
> >>
> >> >But clearly you would be happy to replace all free-living
> >> >wildlife with a few species of dominated animals
> >>
> >> No. I would be happy to see both, which is what we're seeing.
> >>
> >> >for your "meat and gravy".
> >>
> >> ? Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
> >> wood and paper products,
> >
> >They kill just as much as any beef eater if that is your point.
>
> You're part of it.
>
> >Gotta kill the flower, to get the carrot.
>
> And the mole, and the mouse, and the rabbit....

All of which is unfortunate and unnecessary.

Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole

2/17/2009 6:21:00 AM

0

dh@. wrote:
>
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:31:51 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message news:us86p49mv1i3tf8hh7on7v4ubvtuh9t9cs@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:31:40 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> >>
> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message news:5j53p4tbpb9qgov5108qk5vglai2qq7pli@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 17:47:06 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message news:pq70p4h1t1gltjvgccf0lpgf4soiesm1ho@4ax.com...
> >> >> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:52:40 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >"Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message news:gmnpb8$c76$1@news.motzarella.org...
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> <dh@.> wrote in message news:37rto4lcigs4hvvflqdpltdb08gi8ihub3@4ax.com...
> >> >> >> >..
> >> >> >> >> > Your selfishness towards wildlife
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >'Mustangs
> >> >> >> >Spirit of the Shrinking West
> >> >> >> >National Geographic
> >> >> >> >February 2009
> >> >> >> >...
> >> >> >> >"Wild horses are right in the middle of a culture that wants nothing to do
> >> >> >> >with them," said Jay Kirkpatrick, director of science and conservation
> >> >> >> >biology at ZooMontana, in Billings, a center for the development of
> >> >> >> >contraceptives for wildlife.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Why do you think we should encourage life for wild horses, but not
> >> >> >> for domestic horses, cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, turkeys, etc...?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Why leave wild species alone?
> >> >>
> >> >> Why do you want wild animals to live instead of domestic ones,
> >> >> and why do you think everyone else should too?
> >> >
> >> >Maybe you'll 'get' this:
> >> >
> >> >'Biodiversity and Ecosystem Functioning: Maintaining Natural Life Support
> >> >Processes
> >> >..
> >> >Critical processes at the ecosystem level influence plant productivity,
> >> >soil fertility, water quality, atmospheric chemistry, and many other local
> >> >and global environmental conditions that ultimately affect human welfare.
> >> >
> >> >These ecosystem processes are controlled by both the diversity and identity
> >> >of the plant, animal, and microbial species living within a community.
> >> >Human modifications to the living community in an ecosystem - as well as
> >> >to the collective biodiversity of the earth - can therefore alter ecological
> >> >functions and life support services that are vital to the well-being of human
> >> >societies. Substantial changes have already occurred, especially local and
> >> >global losses of biodiversity. The primary cause has been widespread
> >> >human transformation of once highly diverse natural ecosystems into
> >> >relatively species-poor managed ecosystems. Recent studies suggest that
> >> >such reductions in biodiversity can alter both the magnitude and the stability
> >> >of ecosystem processes, especially when biodiversity is reduced to the low
> >> >levels typical of many managed systems.
> >> >
> >> >Our review of the available evidence has identified the following certainties
> >> >concerning biodiversity and ecosystem functioning:
> >> >
> >> ># Human impacts on global biodiversity have been dramatic, resulting in
> >> >unprecedented losses in global biodiversity at all levels, from genes and
> >> >species to entire ecosystems;
> >> >
> >> ># Local declines in biodiversity are even more dramatic than global
> >> >declines, and the beneficial effects of many organisms on local
> >> >processes are lost long before the species become globally extinct;
> >> >
> >> ># Many ecosystem processes are sensitive to declines in biodiversity;
> >> >
> >> ># Changes in the identity and abundance of species in an ecosystem can be
> >> >as important as changes in biodiversity in influencing ecosystem processes.
> >> >
> >> >From current research, we have identified the following impacts on
> >> >ecosystem functioning that often result from loss of biodiversity:
> >> >
> >> ># Plant production may decline as regional and local diversity declines;
> >> >
> >> ># Ecosystem resistance to environmental perturbations, such as drought,
> >> >may be lessened as biodiversity is reduced;
> >> >
> >> ># Ecosystem processes such as soil nitrogen levels, water use, plant
> >> >productivity, and pest and disease cycles may become more variable as
> >> >diversity declines.
> >> >
> >> >Given its importance to human welfare, the maintenance of ecosystem
> >> >functioning should be included as an integral part of national and
> >> >international policies designed to conserve local and global biodiversity.
> >> >..'
> >> >http://www.epa.gov/watertrain/pdf/...
> >> >
> >> >> >Haven't you done enough harm already?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >How can you think decimating/exterminating these horses and other wild
> >> >> >species just to satisfy your selfish and unhealthy desire to eat the flesh of
> >> >> >domesticated cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, turkeys, etc... is acceptable?
> >> >>
> >> >> It allows those animals to live for one thing.
> >> >
> >> >And wildlife be damned, eh.
> >>
> >> I'm in favor of domestic animals and wildlife both. You're in favor
> >> of wildlife only so you pretend, yet you also pretend to keep domestic
> >> animals which would mean wildlife be damned if you did/do so...
> >
> >The wildlife eat most of the grain thrown out for the chickens...
>
> I don't believe that bull shit, and neither do you.
>
> >You say you're 'in favor' of wildlife, while smashing heads in...
>
> I wasn't in favor of the ones I smashed.
>
> >> >We get it.. "obtaining meat and gravy are at
> >> >least two reasons to promote life for farm animals", - dh@. 22 Mar 2006.
> >>
> >> They are two reasons regardless of how much it disturbs
> >> you that billions of animals live because of them.
> >
> >The two reasons for widespread habitat destruction and death.
>
> The same is true of eating crops. The difference is that meat
> consumers contribute to the lives of some of the animals they
> contribute to the deaths of, while vegans only contribute to deaths.

How, if Vegans didn't grow grain Cows wouldn't eat.

Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole

2/17/2009 6:23:00 AM

0

dh@. wrote:
>
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:02:57 -0900, Azure <laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:
>
> >dh@. wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:34:00 -0900, Azure <laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:52:40 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >"Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message news:gmnpb8$c76$1@news.motzarella.org...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> <dh@.> wrote in message news:37rto4lcigs4hvvflqdpltdb08gi8ihub3@4ax.com...
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Neither of us would exist if humans had never begun to eat meat.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >That is a "Hypothisis", which can not be proven.
> >>
> >> ALL evidence suggests it is true.
> >
> >All "YOUR" evidence.
>
> All YOUR evidence as well. In fact as I pointed out: ALL evidence
> suggests it is true.

No, as has been pointed out back, only subjective opinion.
Spiritually, the Animal is a Sacred as a Human.
It is a SIN, a Karmic Violation, to "KILL".

pearl

2/17/2009 12:07:00 PM

0

<dh@.> wrote in message news:538jp4ln8ejj366beicp4og76pceilm9ct@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:56:23 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message news:4696p4tiss8mr8cehv44ci7i6uvk04594p@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:31:51 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> >>
> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message news:no53p4hhk0jqleskd50r8ri1k2u1c5il74@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:46:52 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> >> >..
> >> >> >'The fact that horses were domesticated before they were reintroduced matters
> >> >> >little from a biological viewpoint. They are the same species that originated here,
> >> >>
> >> >> What happened to them?
> >> >
> >> >'The genus Equus, which includes modern horses, zebras, and asses, is the
> >> >only surviving genus in a once diverse family of horses that included 27 genera.
> >> >The precise date of origin for the genus Equus is unknown, but evidence
> >> >documents the dispersal of Equus from North America to Eurasia approximately
> >> >2-3 million years ago
> >>
> >> So they left without any influence from humans. They don't belong there...
> >
> >They migrated back and forth.
>
> Obviously they left.

And returned...

> >There was a land bridge at that time.
>
> Then that's probably what they used to leave.

Bravo.

> >> >and a possible origin at about 3.4-3.9 million years ago.
> >> >Following this original emigration, several extinctions occurred in North America,
> >> >with additional migrations to Asia (presumably across the Bering Land Bridge),
> >> >and return migrations back to North America, over time. The last North American
> >> >extinction occurred between 13,000 and 11,000 years ago.[1] Had it not been for
> >> >previous westward migration, over the land bridge, into northwestern Russia
> >> >(Siberia) and Asia, the horse would have faced complete extinction. However,
> >> >Equus survived and spread to all continents of the globe, except Australia and
> >> >Antarctica.
> >> >..'
> >> >http://www.wildhorsespirit.org/3-2-2005_WH_Native_Species_Scientific-MetaAn...
> >> >
> >> >-restore context-
> >> >- 'The fact that horses were domesticated before they were reintroduced matters
> >> >- little from a biological viewpoint. They are the same species that originated here,
> >> >> >and whether or not they were domesticated is quite irrelevant.
> >> >>
> >> >> If that's the case then it's okay for domesticated horses and cattle etc to
> >> >> exist instead.
> >> >
> >> >It doesn't follow.
> >>
> >> Sure it does. If it matters little that the horses were domesticated, then it
> >> matters little that sheep, cattle, etc are domesticated too. They all live for
> >> whatever reason they do, including those humans raise deliberately.
> >
> >'Livestock grazing seriously impacts wild ungulates such as elk, bighorn sheep,
> >and pronghorn through forage competition, disease transmission, social
> >displacement, habitat degradation, and plant community alteration. On the
> >majority of public lands, more forage is allotted to livestock than to native large
> >herbivores. Whereas native species are an integral part of the ecosystems in
> >which they have evolved, alien, domestic animals represent a denial and violation
> >of ecological integrity.
> >....'
> >http://www.publiclandsranching.org/htmlres/wr_bison_...
> >
> >> >But clearly you would be happy to replace all free-living
> >> >wildlife with a few species of dominated animals
> >>
> >> No. I would be happy to see both, which is what we're seeing.
> >
> >Wildlife in serious trouble everywhere, is what we're seeing.
>
> Most of the problem I've read about is because people cut
> down forests to grow crops, but they depleat the quality of the
> soil in just a few seasons to the point all that can be grown is
> grass, so then they raise livestock since they can no longer
> grow the crops they cut trees down so they could grow to
> begin with.

'Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface, mostly
permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable land
used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests are
cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation,
especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of
former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing.
..'
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/...

Think about that. Here's the correct strategy for our frugivorous species:

'SEVEN STOREYS OF ABUNDANCE; A VISIT TO ROBERT HART'S
FOREST GARDEN

Following the Permaculture Design Course run by 'Naturewise' in the Spring
1997, a group of graduates decided to visit what has been described as
possibly the only fully developed working Permaculture site in the UK,
Robert Hart's Forest Garden.

Situated at Wenlock Edge on the Welsh borders, Robert began the project
over thirty years ago with the intention of providing a healthy and therapuetic
environment for himself and his brother Lacon, born with severe learning
disabilities.

Starting as relatively conventional smallholders, Robert soon discovered that
maintaining large annual vegetable beds, rearing livestock and taking care of
an orchard were tasks beyond their strength. However, he also observed that
a small bed of perennial vegetables and herbs they had planted up was
looking after itself with little or no intervention. Furthermore, these plants
provided interesting and unusual additions to the diet, as well as seeming to
promote health and vigour in both body and mind.

Noting the maxim of Hippocrates to "make food your medicine and medicine
your food", Robert adopted a vegan, 90% raw food diet. He also began to
examine the interactions and relationships that take place between plants in
natural systems, particularly in woodland, the climax eco-system of a cool
temperate region such as the British Isles. This led him to evolve the concept
of the 'Forest Garden': Based on the observation that the natural forest can
be divided into distinct layers or 'storeys', he developed an existing small
orchard of apples and pears into an edible landscape consisting of seven
dimensions;

I) A 'canopy' layer consisting of the original mature fruit trees.
2) A 'low-tree' layer of smaller nut and fruit trees on dwarfing root stocks.
3) A 'shrub layer' of fruit bushes such as currants and berries.
4) A 'herbaceous layer' of perennial vegetables and herbs.
5) A 'ground cover' layer of edible plants that spread horizontally.
6) A 'rhizosphere' or 'underground' dimension of plants grown for
their roots and tubers.
7) A vertical 'layer' of vines and climbers.

[illustration -
The Forest Garden: A Seven Level Beneficial Guild
1. Canopy (large fruit and nut trees)
2. Low tree layer (dwarf fruit trees)
3. Shrub layer (currants and berries)
4. Herbaceous (comfreys, beets, herbs)
5. Rhizosphere (root vegetables)
6. Soil surface (ground cover, eg. strawberry, etc)
7. Vertical layer (climbers, vines) ]

Stepping into the Forest Garden is like entering another world. All around
is lushness and abundance, a sharp contrast to the dust bowl aridity of
the surrounding prairie farmed fields and farmlands. At first the sheer
profusion of growth is bewildering, like entering a wild wood. We're not
used to productive landscapes appearing so disorderly. But it doesn't
take long for the true harmony of nature's systems to reveal themselves,
and the realisation sinks in that in fact it is the Agribiz monocultures, with
their heavy machinery, genetic manipulation, erosion, high water inputs,
pesticides and fertilisers which are in a total state of maintained chaos.
Whereas hectares of land may produce bushel after bushel of but one crop,
genetically degraded and totally vulnerable to ever more virulent strains of
pest and disease without the dubious protection of massive chemical inputs,
just an eighth of an acre of a garden such as Robert's can output a
tremendous variety of yields. Whilst too early in the year for the apples,
plums and pears beginning to swell in the trees, we were surrounded by
gluts of black, red and whitecurrants, gooseberries, raspberries and
loganberries; as well as a profusion of saladings such as sorrel, lovage,
tree-onions, wild garlic, borage, lemon balm and many other herbs.

Foraging a meal for the nine of us was an extremely enjoyable task, not like
work at all. Robert, a gentle and erudite man, yet possessed of a great
clarity of purpose, joined us for our campfire feast. As we sat and chatted
into the evening he explained his motivations and hopes for the future. Of
his plans to expand the original Forest Garden, and his dream of a network
of such gardens covering not only Britain but the world, bringing an
abundance of natural food, and healing to both peoplekind and the planet.
He spoke of his philosophical inspiration by figures as diverse as John
Seymour, Ghandi, Kropotkin and Kagawa; of the antecedents of the
Forest Garden such as the 'home gardens' of Kerala, where most of the
land is covered with productive trees; and later sang us songs that he used
to share with his late brother Lacon, including those of murdered Chilean
land and human rights campaigner Victor Jara.

This was a magical evening, an illustration that perhaps the primary forces
within the Forest Garden are of spirituality and peace. Whilst being highly
productive of nuts, fruits, fresh perennial vegetables and medicinal herbs,
the most important yield of this place is the reminder that there is much
more to how we find sustenance as human beings than what we consume,
than looking at our sources of nourishment purely in terms of net tonnes
per hectare. The forest garden is an idea whose time has come.

"Obviously, few of us are in a position to restore the forests.. But tens of
millions of us have gardens, or access to open spaces such as industrial
wastelands, where trees can be planted. and if full advantage can be taken
of the potentialities that are available even in heavily built up areas, new
'city forests' can arise..." (Robert A.de J.Hart)

GRAHAM BURNETT

Taken from VOHAN News International, issue 2, available from
'Anandavan'

http://www.spiralseed.co.uk/forestgarden/...

> >> >for your "meat and gravy".
> >
> >Unsupported SPAM snipped.
>
> Everything I share with you people is true afaik, including
> and quite significantly the things you hate the most.

1. You *can't* support your claims with credible evidence.

2. See above. You have a brain for a reason. Try using it.