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comp.lang.ruby

Hypergraph?

Hal E. Fulton

10/9/2004 6:21:00 PM

I've looked a little at Hypergraph (http://hypergraph.sourc...) and I
like it so far.

It's a Java thing.

How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
manipulate something like this from within Ruby?


Hal
25 Answers

ptkwt

10/9/2004 7:58:00 PM

0

In article <41682BF5.1070805@hypermetrics.com>,
Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
>I've looked a little at Hypergraph (http://hypergraph.sourc...) and I
>like it so far.
>
>It's a Java thing.
>
>How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
>manipulate something like this from within Ruby?
>

Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?

Also, are there any C/C++ libraries for doing this? It would probably be
a lot easier to Swig a C/C++ library than to try to interact Java.

Phil

Hal E. Fulton

10/9/2004 8:31:00 PM

0

Phil Tomson wrote:
>
> Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?

I wasn't aware GraphViz could do hyperbolic trees?? If it can, that's great.

> Also, are there any C/C++ libraries for doing this? It would probably be
> a lot easier to Swig a C/C++ library than to try to interact Java.

There's a commercial one from inxight.com, license around $25,000 or so,
I think.


Hal

zuzu

10/9/2004 10:34:00 PM

0

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 05:24:41 +0900, Phil Tomson <ptkwt@aracnet.com> wrote:
> In article <41682BF5.1070805@hypermetrics.com>,
>
>
> Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
> >I've looked a little at Hypergraph (http://hypergraph.sourc...) and I
> >like it so far.
> >
> >It's a Java thing.
> >
> >How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
> >manipulate something like this from within Ruby?
> >
>
> Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
>
> Also, are there any C/C++ libraries for doing this? It would probably be
> a lot easier to Swig a C/C++ library than to try to interact Java.
>
> Phil

http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools...

from the same organization who brought us CROWDS (perl based
anonymizing proxy, which has disappeared from their website) and
Natural Voice text-to-speech synthesis
[http://www.research.att.com/projects/tts...] (plus, UNIX, C,
C++...)

peace,
-z

Kaspar Schiess

10/9/2004 10:39:00 PM

0

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Hal Fulton wrote:
| How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
| manipulate something like this from within Ruby?

Rjb (http://raa.ruby-lang.org/pr...) does a very good job of
bringing Java to Ruby and vice versa.

The only thing that you need to worry about is overloaded methods, where
you have to explicitly choose which one you want to call. Exception
handling seems to work ok.

Tell me if you are interested in a more useful syntax (=working syntax)
in connection with classpath loading.

You might want to wrap Hypergraph with a Ruby module that contains Java
bridge code.

happy hacking !
kaspar

semantics & semiotics
code manufacture

www.tua.ch/ruby
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Hal E. Fulton

10/9/2004 10:43:00 PM

0

zuzu wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 05:24:41 +0900, Phil Tomson <ptkwt@aracnet.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <41682BF5.1070805@hypermetrics.com>,
>>
>>
>>Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I've looked a little at Hypergraph (http://hypergraph.sourc...) and I
>>>like it so far.
>>>
>>>It's a Java thing.
>>>
>>>How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
>>>manipulate something like this from within Ruby?
>>>
>>
>>Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
>>
>>Also, are there any C/C++ libraries for doing this? It would probably be
>>a lot easier to Swig a C/C++ library than to try to interact Java.
>>
>>Phil
>
>
> http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools...
>
> from the same organization who brought us CROWDS (perl based
> anonymizing proxy, which has disappeared from their website) and
> Natural Voice text-to-speech synthesis
> [http://www.research.att.com/projects/tts...] (plus, UNIX, C,
> C++...)

Well, again I have some familiarity with GraphViz, but I still don't see any
evidence it can handle hyperbolic display. I've just looked over the docs
again.

Is this a new feature that isn't in the docs yet?


Hal

ptkwt

10/9/2004 10:44:00 PM

0

In article <41684A67.5000306@hypermetrics.com>,
Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
>Phil Tomson wrote:
>>
>> Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
>
>I wasn't aware GraphViz could do hyperbolic trees?? If it can, that's great.

No, not hyperbolic trees. However it can represent trees graphically. I
only glanced briefly at the page you referenced, but it seemed (from
looking at an example) that you could get some _similar_ functionality
from GraphViz. I'm not entirely sure I grok the difference with
hyperbolic trees; I was thinking that it was just another algorithm for
representing the tree graphially.

>
>> Also, are there any C/C++ libraries for doing this? It would probably be
>> a lot easier to Swig a C/C++ library than to try to interact Java.
>
>There's a commercial one from inxight.com, license around $25,000 or so,
>I think.

Yow.

What exactly are you trying to do?

Phil

Hal E. Fulton

10/9/2004 11:02:00 PM

0

Kaspar Schiess wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hal Fulton wrote:
> | How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
> | manipulate something like this from within Ruby?
>
> Rjb (http://raa.ruby-lang.org/pr...) does a very good job of
> bringing Java to Ruby and vice versa.

I don't think I knew about that one... I will give it a try. (inserts in
to-do list about 10% of the way from top).


Thanks,
Hal

Hal E. Fulton

10/9/2004 11:27:00 PM

0

Phil Tomson wrote:
> In article <41684A67.5000306@hypermetrics.com>,
> Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
>
>>Phil Tomson wrote:
>>
>>>Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
>>
>>I wasn't aware GraphViz could do hyperbolic trees?? If it can, that's great.
>
>
> No, not hyperbolic trees. However it can represent trees graphically. I
> only glanced briefly at the page you referenced, but it seemed (from
> looking at an example) that you could get some _similar_ functionality
> from GraphViz. I'm not entirely sure I grok the difference with
> hyperbolic trees; I was thinking that it was just another algorithm for
> representing the tree graphially.

I may be misusing the term a little. Not sure.

I'll explain as well as I can something that I think is Cool. :)

Imagine you have a graph of infinite size in a plane. Those are tedious
to display, because they require monitors of infinite size, which can
get expensive. The nodes are all roughly equidistant from their neighbors
and roughly the same in size (not that it really matters).

Now imagine you have a fat convex lens that you can pass over this plane.
The node you hover over will be centered and will be the largest one. As
you look off in any direction, the nodes are smaller and closer together.
As you approach the boundary of the lens, you're approaching infinity.
Like that Escher print with the angels and the demons, or one of the
variants thereof.

As you move the lens, a different node comes into focus. It is now the
largest and most central, and it is still surrounded by a potentially
infinite number of nodes.

There have been applets and even browsers made which worked this way.
You could "drag" nodes offcenter into focus. To travel toward infinity,
just keep dragging. And so on.

The StarTree example at inxight.com is a fairly good one. I think they
have a demo or something.

As for what I want it for: Well, it's premature. But I'd like to have an
interface like that as an alternative interface for Tycho.


Hal

ptkwt

10/10/2004 12:41:00 AM

0

In article <416873A3.2060308@hypermetrics.com>,
Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
>Phil Tomson wrote:
>> In article <41684A67.5000306@hypermetrics.com>,
>> Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Phil Tomson wrote:
>>>
>>>>Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
>>>
>>>I wasn't aware GraphViz could do hyperbolic trees?? If it can, that's great.
>>
>>
>> No, not hyperbolic trees. However it can represent trees graphically. I
>> only glanced briefly at the page you referenced, but it seemed (from
>> looking at an example) that you could get some _similar_ functionality
>> from GraphViz. I'm not entirely sure I grok the difference with
>> hyperbolic trees; I was thinking that it was just another algorithm for
>> representing the tree graphially.
>
>I may be misusing the term a little. Not sure.
>
>I'll explain as well as I can something that I think is Cool. :)
>
>Imagine you have a graph of infinite size in a plane. Those are tedious
>to display, because they require monitors of infinite size, which can
>get expensive. The nodes are all roughly equidistant from their neighbors
>and roughly the same in size (not that it really matters).
>
>Now imagine you have a fat convex lens that you can pass over this plane.
>The node you hover over will be centered and will be the largest one. As
>you look off in any direction, the nodes are smaller and closer together.
>As you approach the boundary of the lens, you're approaching infinity.
>Like that Escher print with the angels and the demons, or one of the
>variants thereof.
>
>As you move the lens, a different node comes into focus. It is now the
>largest and most central, and it is still surrounded by a potentially
>infinite number of nodes.
>
>There have been applets and even browsers made which worked this way.
>You could "drag" nodes offcenter into focus. To travel toward infinity,
>just keep dragging. And so on.
>
>The StarTree example at inxight.com is a fairly good one. I think they
>have a demo or something.
>
>As for what I want it for: Well, it's premature. But I'd like to have an
>interface like that as an alternative interface for Tycho.

Since it's for Tycho, wouldn't it be better to have a Ruby implementation
(or Ruby with an extention of some sort) so you don't have to rely on
having Java installed as well?

Also, maybe there are easier ways of acheiving a similar effect to this
hyperbolic view (which does seem fairly compute intensive)? For example,
couldn't you just view a variable number of levels from the center of your
tree view (so when you zoom in, you get more levels and when you zoom out
you get less)?

Sure it sounds cool, but I'm just not sure that the hyperbolic view adds
that much advantage for a user interface... There's probably an easier
way.

Phil

Jamis Buck

10/10/2004 2:02:00 AM

0

Phil Tomson wrote:
> Since it's for Tycho, wouldn't it be better to have a Ruby implementation
> (or Ruby with an extention of some sort) so you don't have to rely on
> having Java installed as well?

I agree. Hal, drop what you're doing and write a Ruby implementation,
would ya? ;) Seriously, though, a Ruby implementation would be a more
generally-desirable solution, anyway.

> Also, maybe there are easier ways of acheiving a similar effect to this
> hyperbolic view (which does seem fairly compute intensive)? For example,
> couldn't you just view a variable number of levels from the center of your
> tree view (so when you zoom in, you get more levels and when you zoom out
> you get less)?
>
> Sure it sounds cool, but I'm just not sure that the hyperbolic view adds
> that much advantage for a user interface... There's probably an easier
> way.

It not only sounds cool, it *is* cool. I've used an interface that used
a hyperbolic tree, and it is *really* slick. I think it would be great
to have something like that in Tycho.

--
Jamis Buck
jgb3@email.byu.edu
http://www.jamisbuck...