Asp Forum - Trivial question - Visual C# .Net vs Visual Studio .Net

owr

10/2/2003 7:21:00 PM

I'd like to purchase Visual C# .Net for learning purposes only since it's a
lot cheaper than Visual Studio (note that I'm a very experienced C++
developer). Can someone simply clarify the basic differences. Ok, Visual
Studio has C++, VB and J++ thrown in plus some extra bells and whistles (I
already have some minimal experience) but are both IDE's essentially the
same (including the same IDE support for creating forms, ADO.NET DataSets,
etc.). When I eventually move to Visual Studio permanently I don't want to
face an entirely new learning curve. Thanks.

32 Answers

Dick Grier

10/2/2003 8:30:00 PM

Hi,

The IDEs are the same. You are limited to C#... It is intended to do just
what you want, so I'd say, "Go for it." Get the full VS 2003(or X) later.

--
Richard Grier (Microsoft Visual Basic MVP)

See www.hardandsoftware.net for contact information.

Author of Visual Basic Programmer's Guide to Serial Communications, 3rd
Edition ISBN 1-890422-27-4 (391 pages) published February 2002.

Guinness Mann

10/2/2003 10:37:00 PM

In article <eqN2$oRiDHA.2224@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>, _no_spam@nospam.com
says...
> I'd like to purchase Visual C# .Net for learning purposes only since it's a
> lot cheaper than Visual Studio (note that I'm a very experienced C++
> developer). Can someone simply clarify the basic differences. Ok, Visual
> Studio has C++, VB and J++ thrown in plus some extra bells and whistles (I
> already have some minimal experience) but are both IDE's essentially the
> same (including the same IDE support for creating forms, ADO.NET DataSets,
> etc.). When I eventually move to Visual Studio permanently I don't want to
> face an entirely new learning curve. Thanks.

I'd check to make sure that the SQL server stuff is in C#.Net.

Consider that if you can qualify for an Academic discount, you can get
the full VS.NET for about $80.

One class at a local community college (in *anything*) gets you a
student Id which qualifies you for the Academic discount (even if you
never go to class <wink>). You can't do production work with an
Academic edition, but for "learning purposes only" it can't be beat.

-- Rick

owr

10/3/2003 12:23:00 AM

> The IDEs are the same. You are limited to C#... It is intended to do just
> what you want, so I'd say, "Go for it." Get the full VS 2003(or X) later.

I will be. Thanks very much.

owr

10/3/2003 12:44:00 AM

> I'd check to make sure that the SQL server stuff is in C#.Net.

I hope so. Access to a DB is no problem but whether the IDE provides the
same basic DB support as Visual Studio does is another matter.

> Consider that if you can qualify for an Academic discount, you can get
> the full VS.NET for about $80.
>
> One class at a local community college (in *anything*) gets you a
> student Id which qualifies you for the Academic discount (even if you
> never go to class <wink>). You can't do production work with an
> Academic edition, but for "learning purposes only" it can't be beat.

I've actually considered it (or purchasing it through a student) but quite
frankly I don't know if it's ethical. Some still care about that believe it
or not (to the surprise of many). MS only makes it available to bona fide
students for a reason but I really only want it for learning purposes. If
they released it to the general public however there would be a run on the
product by unscrupulous developers. They're also trying to raise the next
generation of MS loyalists of course but I have to believe that they really
don't have a problem with people who are truly purchasing it for learning
purposes. That may be rationalization but I'd like to hear what MS really
has to say about it (any reps reading here?). Anyway, thanks for the
feedback.

MikeB

10/3/2003 3:24:00 PM

John Timbers wrote:

> I'd like to purchase Visual C# .Net for learning purposes only since it's a
> lot cheaper than Visual Studio (note that I'm a very experienced C++
> developer). Can someone simply clarify the basic differences. Ok, Visual
> Studio has C++, VB and J++ thrown in plus some extra bells and whistles (I
> already have some minimal experience) but are both IDE's essentially the
> same (including the same IDE support for creating forms, ADO.NET DataSets,
> etc.). When I eventually move to Visual Studio permanently I don't want to
> face an entirely new learning curve. Thanks.
>
>

I believe that Visual C# Standard edition does not include IDE support
for database operations.

The comparison table for the various versions of Visual Studio is at:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/howtobuy/cho...

The comparison table between Visual C# Std Edition and Visual Studio
Professional is at:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vcsharp/howtobuy/cho...

It's not particularly detailed, but it does seem to exclude 'visually
author powerful data-driven software'.

--
mikeb

K. Shier

10/10/2003 6:55:00 PM

i don't see any mention of this in the feature matrices, so i'm not sure if
it applies to VC#.Net, but back when i bought VB.Net Standard, i was rudely
surprised to find out it could only connect to MSDE not a full-version SQL
Server database.

also interesting to note that VB.Net Std. prohibits you from authoring user
controls while VC# Std. doesn't seem to have any similar limitation.

as for the ethics involved - i'm not an M$ rep, but i did give it some
thought...

my humble opinion: (ethics withheld) if you register at a school & enroll
in a class, you are a student by definition. lots of 'students' pay and
never show up!

my humble opinion: (ethics interjected, for the conscience that needs a bit
more massaging) if you register at a school & enroll in a class, you are a
student by definition. if you one day decide that you can use the
courseware to teach yourself better than your instructor can, and decide to
go into self-driven study mode and never return to class, you are still, by
definition, a student until the end of the semester. (individual
school's/instructor's attendance policies vary! but, unless the instructor
has a specific attendance requirement, you could even show up for the final
to (hopefully) pass it and still get credit. i've seen it done many times &
even done it once myself!) if you buy the academic version of the software
with good faith intent to use it only for learning purposes, i don't see an
ethical conflict.

i don't know the internal workings of the M$ educational 'sponsorship'
mechanism, but i don't see how your actions would be depriving anyone. (the
school still got their tuition money. the bookstore still got the purchase
price. i don't know exactly what M$ expects out of the deal, but that's
between the college/bookstore and them. you have already fulfilled your
part of the contract by paying to enroll in class and purchase the software)
you have already stated that you have good-faith intentions to use it in a
non-production setting, so you are not sapping the economy of real
developers...

all localized definitions aside, though, my idealist opinion is that the
mere fact that you state "i want to learn!" makes you a student and entitled
to the benefits thereof. =) good luck! =)

"mikeb" <mailbox.google@mailnull.com> wrote in message
news:OCOelJciDHA.1456@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> John Timbers wrote:
>
> > I'd like to purchase Visual C# .Net for learning purposes only since
it's a
> > lot cheaper than Visual Studio (note that I'm a very experienced C++
> > developer). Can someone simply clarify the basic differences. Ok, Visual
> > Studio has C++, VB and J++ thrown in plus some extra bells and whistles
(I
> > already have some minimal experience) but are both IDE's essentially the
> > same (including the same IDE support for creating forms, ADO.NET
DataSets,
> > etc.). When I eventually move to Visual Studio permanently I don't want
to
> > face an entirely new learning curve. Thanks.
> >
> >
>
> I believe that Visual C# Standard edition does not include IDE support
> for database operations.
>
> The comparison table for the various versions of Visual Studio is at:
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/howtobuy/cho...
>
> The comparison table between Visual C# Std Edition and Visual Studio
> Professional is at:
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/vcsharp/howtobuy/cho...
>
> It's not particularly detailed, but it does seem to exclude 'visually
> author powerful data-driven software'.
>
> --
> mikeb
>

robertlo

11/1/2003 11:00:00 PM

Hi,
Why not just order the trial VS.net from M$?
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/producti...
You can even try it on-line.
As someone points out, this is super depressing that an experienced
C++ developer can't afford a copy of VS.net.
May be, your company or your friends have a trail copy of VS.net
already since M$ mail them out to developers like there is no
tomorrow.
Robert
"K. Shier" <ks4hire@spamAtYourOwnRisk.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<uteat81jDHA.2312@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>...
> i don't see any mention of this in the feature matrices, so i'm not sure if
> it applies to VC#.Net, but back when i bought VB.Net Standard, i was rudely
> surprised to find out it could only connect to MSDE not a full-version SQL
> Server database.
>
> also interesting to note that VB.Net Std. prohibits you from authoring user
> controls while VC# Std. doesn't seem to have any similar limitation.
>
> as for the ethics involved - i'm not an M$ rep, but i did give it some
> thought...
>
> my humble opinion: (ethics withheld) if you register at a school & enroll
> in a class, you are a student by definition. lots of 'students' pay and
> never show up!
>
> my humble opinion: (ethics interjected, for the conscience that needs a bit
> more massaging) if you register at a school & enroll in a class, you are a
> student by definition. if you one day decide that you can use the
> courseware to teach yourself better than your instructor can, and decide to
> go into self-driven study mode and never return to class, you are still, by
> definition, a student until the end of the semester. (individual
> school's/instructor's attendance policies vary! but, unless the instructor
> has a specific attendance requirement, you could even show up for the final
> to (hopefully) pass it and still get credit. i've seen it done many times &
> even done it once myself!) if you buy the academic version of the software
> with good faith intent to use it only for learning purposes, i don't see an
> ethical conflict.
>
> i don't know the internal workings of the M$ educational 'sponsorship'
> mechanism, but i don't see how your actions would be depriving anyone. (the
> school still got their tuition money. the bookstore still got the purchase
> price. i don't know exactly what M$ expects out of the deal, but that's
> between the college/bookstore and them. you have already fulfilled your
> part of the contract by paying to enroll in class and purchase the software)
> you have already stated that you have good-faith intentions to use it in a
> non-production setting, so you are not sapping the economy of real
> developers...
>
> all localized definitions aside, though, my idealist opinion is that the
> mere fact that you state "i want to learn!" makes you a student and entitled
> to the benefits thereof. =) good luck! =)
>
>
> "mikeb" <mailbox.google@mailnull.com> wrote in message
> news:OCOelJciDHA.1456@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > John Timbers wrote:
> >
> > > I'd like to purchase Visual C# .Net for learning purposes only since
> it's a
> > > lot cheaper than Visual Studio (note that I'm a very experienced C++
> > > developer). Can someone simply clarify the basic differences. Ok, Visual
> > > Studio has C++, VB and J++ thrown in plus some extra bells and whistles
> (I
> > > already have some minimal experience) but are both IDE's essentially the
> > > same (including the same IDE support for creating forms, ADO.NET
> DataSets,
> > > etc.). When I eventually move to Visual Studio permanently I don't want
> to
> > > face an entirely new learning curve. Thanks.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I believe that Visual C# Standard edition does not include IDE support
> > for database operations.
> >
> > The comparison table for the various versions of Visual Studio is at:
> >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/howtobuy/cho...
> >
> > The comparison table between Visual C# Std Edition and Visual Studio
> > Professional is at:
> >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/vcsharp/howtobuy/cho...
> >
> > It's not particularly detailed, but it does seem to exclude 'visually
> > author powerful data-driven software'.
> >
> > --
> > mikeb
> >

John Tobler

11/4/2003 1:14:00 AM

Robert wrote:
> As someone points out, this is super depressing that an experienced
> C++ developer can't afford a copy of VS.net. ....

I'm a bit tired of seeing threads and chains of posts like this, so I put up
this weblog entry to deal with it:

http://weblogs.asp.net/jtobler/posts/...

John Tobler

Alvin Bruney

11/4/2003 3:18:00 AM

From your blog you wrote:
>You can use Notepad or any better editor to write the code. In fact, I
strongly recommend >learning to write .NET code *without* using Visual
Studio.NET so you *really* learn what's >going on

That premise is so bogus. How about paraphrasing it like this. To learn to
drive a car, I'd really suggest you remove the engine so you can learn how
the car moves. Or how about this: I really recommend you learn HTML to do
web programming so you understand how things work inside a web page. Nuff
said. The point of tools like VS is to abstract this tedium out of the
programmers hands so s/he can concentrate on what matters most - developing
products.

The point is this: tools are for a programmer's benefit. At the end of the
day, your paycheck is based on your productivity, not on how much you know
about what goes on underneath the hood. How can that knowledge help you be
more productive if you have to write out boiler plate code for yourself. You
can't because you are wasting your time re-inventing a finely tuned wheel.
What's the good of this knowledge if you let the environment write the code
for you? So you haven't really gained anything for the company who pays you
your check.

Now if you are in the business of writing IDE's, then that is an entirely
different kettle of fish because you wouldn't be a 'learner' in the first
place. If a tool increases your productivity, you need to learn how to use
it. VS studio increases programmer productivity. Learn how to use it to
increase your productivity. I actually have programmers still using notepad
taking forever to write simple apps on company time. I actually have
programmers writing html in aspx pages. I actually have these same
programmers complaining that I make them look bad because I crank out
projects too fast. Now, that there, aint right. You can tell this is a
thorny issue for me, can't you?
--

-----------
Got TidBits?
Get it here: www.networkip.net/tidbits
"John Tobler" <jtobler@edmin.com> wrote in message
news:eN8H#DnoDHA.2512@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Robert wrote:
> > As someone points out, this is super depressing that an experienced
> > C++ developer can't afford a copy of VS.net. ....
>
> I'm a bit tired of seeing threads and chains of posts like this, so I put
up
> this weblog entry to deal with it:
>
> http://weblogs.asp.net/jtobler/posts/...
>
> John Tobler
>
>

Jon Skeet

11/4/2003 4:29:00 AM

Alvin Bruney <vapordan_spam_me_not@hotmail_no_spamhotmail.com> wrote:
> From your blog you wrote:
> >You can use Notepad or any better editor to write the code. In fact, I
> strongly recommend >learning to write .NET code *without* using Visual
> Studio.NET so you *really* learn what's >going on
>
> That premise is so bogus. How about paraphrasing it like this. To learn to
> drive a car, I'd really suggest you remove the engine so you can learn how
> the car moves.

That one's going a bit far, but:

> Or how about this: I really recommend you learn HTML to do
> web programming so you understand how things work inside a web page.

Absolutely! Anyone who tries to develop a web app but doesn't know HTML
to start with is at a *serious* disadvantage.

> Nuff
> said. The point of tools like VS is to abstract this tedium out of the
> programmers hands so s/he can concentrate on what matters most - developing
> products.
>
> The point is this: tools are for a programmer's benefit. At the end of the
> day, your paycheck is based on your productivity, not on how much you know
> about what goes on underneath the hood. How can that knowledge help you be
> more productive if you have to write out boiler plate code for yourself.

You write the boiler plate code to start with, then *maybe* you let the
tool do it at a later date, once you understand what it will be doing
for you. (You may, like me, choose to end up writing all your GUI code
by hand anyway, just to get more maintainable code in the long run.)

> You
> can't because you are wasting your time re-inventing a finely tuned wheel.
> What's the good of this knowledge if you let the environment write the code
> for you? So you haven't really gained anything for the company who pays you
> your check.

Again, I couldn't disagree more. If all you know how to do is drag
things around on the form designer, you're utterly stuck as soon as
anything goes wrong. People who run before they can walk are the reason
I wrote this page:

http://www.pobox..../java/lea...

Now it's not too bad to use the IDE as a basic editor to give you
autocompletion etc, but I believe it's well worth at least being *able*
to write a simple GUI yourself if you're later going to let the IDE do
that kind of work for you.

> Now if you are in the business of writing IDE's, then that is an entirely
> different kettle of fish because you wouldn't be a 'learner' in the first
> place. If a tool increases your productivity, you need to learn how to use
> it. VS studio increases programmer productivity. Learn how to use it to
> increase your productivity. I actually have programmers still using notepad
> taking forever to write simple apps on company time. I actually have
> programmers writing html in aspx pages. I actually have these same
> programmers complaining that I make them look bad because I crank out
> projects too fast. Now, that there, aint right. You can tell this is a
> thorny issue for me, can't you?

For a very long time I used a simple text editor (not Notepad, I'm
pleased to say) when writing Java. I still *do* use it for C# and Java
when I can't be bothered to fire up VS.NET or Eclipse. I only started
using Eclipse for its refactoring support, really - and now I've become
used to autocomplete, organize imports (which I really hope we get in
the next version of VS.NET) etc. While I'm more productive now than I
was before, that's in no way due to it writing huge chunks of code for
me - if I let an IDE do that, I know for sure that I'll spend more time
trying to get it to do *exactly* what I want than I would if I wrote
the code in the first place, and it would be harder code to maintain
afterwards.

It sounds like you basically have some slow programmers - it's
perfectly possible to code accurately and fast outside an IDE.

--
Jon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox....
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.sdk

Trivial question - Visual C# .Net vs Visual Studio .Net

owr