Asp Forum - Factory Method / Prototype Design Pattern

Pallav singh

11/18/2008 1:29:00 PM

Hi ,

when should i select Factory Method / Prototype Design Pattern
during my design phase ??
as both look similar to me

Thanks in Advance

Thanks
Pallav

8 Answers

yuvalif

11/18/2008 1:36:00 PM

On Nov 18, 8:29 am, Pallav singh <singh.pal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi ,
>
> when should i select Factory Method / Prototype Design Pattern
> during my design phase ??
> as both look similar to me
>
> Thanks in Advance
>
> Thanks
> Pallav

IMHO, you should find a pattern for a problem and not a problem to a
pattern

Maxim Yegorushkin

11/18/2008 1:36:00 PM

On Nov 18, 1:29 pm, Pallav singh <singh.pal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi ,
>
> when should i select Factory Method / Prototype Design Pattern
> during my design phase ??
> as both look similar to me

Factory Method creates a new object. Normally, it invokes a (non-copy)
constructor of a concrete implementation class.

Prototype create a new object as a copy of the prototype object. It is
often implemented as clone() member function that invokes the copy
constructor of a concrete implementation class.

You use Factory Method when you want new objects, prototype when you
want copies of existing objects.

--
Max

Pallav singh

11/18/2008 2:11:00 PM

On Nov 18, 6:36 pm, Maxim Yegorushkin <maxim.yegorush...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Nov 18, 1:29 pm, Pallav singh <singh.pal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi ,
>
> > when should i select Factory Method / Prototype Design Pattern
> > during my design phase ??
> > as both look similar to me
>
> Factory Method creates a new object. Normally, it invokes a (non-copy)
> constructor of a concrete implementation class.
>
> Prototype create a new object as a copy of the prototype object. It is
> often implemented as clone() member function that invokes the copy
> constructor of a concrete implementation class.
>
> You use Factory Method when you want new objects, prototype when you
> want copies of existing objects.
>
> --
> Max

Hi

i could not make any diffrence from implementation provided by Huston
Design pattern
http://www.vincehust...

from Gang of Four i got Idea to use under Certain Condition

1. Factory
A class hierarchy of factories that parallels the class hierarchy
of products
Parallel class hierarchies result when a class delegates some of
its responsibilities
to a separate class.

2. Prototype

when instances of a class can have one of only a few different
combinations
of state. It may be more convenient to install a corresponding
number of
prototypes and clone them rather than instantiating the class
manually,
each time with the appropriate state.

Does it mean that i should we protoype when i have to make object
at Run Time
depending upon different combinations of state ???

Thanks
Pallav

Maxim Yegorushkin

11/18/2008 3:15:00 PM

On Nov 18, 2:11 pm, Pallav singh <singh.pal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 6:36 pm, Maxim Yegorushkin <maxim.yegorush...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 18, 1:29 pm, Pallav singh <singh.pal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Hi ,
>
> > > when should i select Factory Method / Prototype Design Pattern
> > > during my design phase ??
> > > as both look similar to me
>
> > Factory Method creates a new object. Normally, it invokes a (non-copy)
> > constructor of a concrete implementation class.
>
> > Prototype create a new object as a copy of the prototype object. It is
> > often implemented as clone() member function that invokes the copy
> > constructor of a concrete implementation class.
>
> > You use Factory Method when you want new objects, prototype when you
> > want copies of existing objects.
>
> > --
> > Max
>
> Hi
>
> i could not make any diffrence from implementation provided by Huston
> Design patternhttp://www.vincehust...
>
> from Gang of Four i got Idea to use under Certain Condition
>
> 1. Factory
> A class hierarchy of factories that parallels the class hierarchy
> of products
> Parallel class hierarchies result when a class delegates some of
> its responsibilities
> to a separate class.

In the original question you mentioned Factory Method design pattern.
Now you are quoting Factory. Huh?

>
> 2. Prototype
>
> when instances of a class can have one of only a few different
> combinations
> of state. It may be more convenient to install a corresponding
> number of
> prototypes and clone them rather than instantiating the class
> manually,
> each time with the appropriate state.
>
> Does it mean that i should we protoype when i have to make object
> at Run Time
> depending upon different combinations of state ???

It depends on the problem at hand. Do you have a concrete problem in
mind?

--
Max

Michael DOUBEZ

11/18/2008 4:21:00 PM

Pallav singh a écrit :
> On Nov 18, 6:36 pm, Maxim Yegorushkin <maxim.yegorush...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Nov 18, 1:29 pm, Pallav singh <singh.pal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi ,
>>> when should i select Factory Method / Prototype Design Pattern
>>> during my design phase ??
>>> as both look similar to me
>> Factory Method creates a new object. Normally, it invokes a (non-copy)
>> constructor of a concrete implementation class.
>>
>> Prototype create a new object as a copy of the prototype object. It is
>> often implemented as clone() member function that invokes the copy
>> constructor of a concrete implementation class.
>>
>> You use Factory Method when you want new objects, prototype when you
>> want copies of existing objects.
>
> i could not make any diffrence from implementation provided by Huston
> Design pattern
> http://www.vincehust...

At the end of the page you provided, the "Rules of thumb" section gives
hints about the forces involved.

>
> from Gang of Four i got Idea to use under Certain Condition[snip]
>
> Does it mean that i should we protoype when i have to make object
> at Run Time
> depending upon different combinations of state ???

No. Prototype is especially useful when the objects requires some
initialization of state or when the clones share a common data.

IMHO the best is to start with a simple factory function and refactor if
needed. If you really think you may need an abstract factory or a
prototype system, you may use a policy-based design as presented by
Alexandrescu but it does add complexity.

--
Michael

Rockinghorse Winner

2/5/2013 1:33:00 AM

On Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:08:37 -0800 (PST), Someone
<glenn.spigel@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 4 February 2013 03:30:33 UTC, Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
> > * It may have been the liquor talking, but
> >
> > Someone wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > I am having a difficulty understanding how a Catholic Priest
could advi=
> se someone that it is ok to work on the Sabbath.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Hopefully I?ll be able to explain why.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > In Part 3, section 2, Chapter 1, article 3 of the Catechism as
at the t=
> ime of writing published on
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/...
> M the Sabbath commandment is written as:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall
labor, an=
> d do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord
your God; =
> in it you shall not do any work.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > It is suggested to be based on Exodus 20:8-10
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 8 "Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.
> >
> > > 9 Six days you may labor and do all your work,
> >
> > > 10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No
work ma=
> y be done then either by you, or your son or daughter, or your male
or fema=
> le slave, or your beast, or by the alien who lives with you.
> >
> > > 11 In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea
and all=
> that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the
LORD ha=
> s blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > and Deut 5:12-15:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 12 'Take care to keep holy the sabbath day as the LORD, your
God, comma=
> nded you.
> >
> > > 13 Six days you may labor and do all your work;
> >
> > > 14 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No
work ma=
> y be done then, whether by you, or your son or daughter, or your
male or fe=
> male slave, or your ox or ass or any of your beasts, or the alien
who lives=
> with you. Your male and female slave should rest as you do.
> >
> > > 15 For remember that you too were once slaves in Egypt, and the
LORD, y=
> our God, brought you from there with his strong hand and
outstretched arm. =
> That is why the LORD, your God, has commanded you to observe the
sabbath da=
> y.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > A similar commandment is given in Exodus 34:21
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt
rest: in=
> earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > And in Exodus 35:2-3
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there
shall be to=
> you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth
work there=
> in shall be put to death.
> >
> > > 3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the
sabbath =
> day.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The prevailing theme of not working on the Sabbath seems to me
to be cl=
> ear.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Regarding the 10 commandments the Catechism in paragraph 2072
states:
> >
> > > Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and
towards his=
> neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial
content, grave =
> obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige
always and e=
> verywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are
engraved=
> by God in the human heart.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The piece that could my attention is the sentence:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > "They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and
everywher=
> e."
> >
> > >
> >
> > > In paragraph 2076 it states:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > "By his life and by his preaching Jesus attested to the
permanent valid=
> ity of the Decalogue."
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Which seems to me to indicate that according to the Catechism
it is an =
> article of faith that the commandments will be true forever.and
everywhere.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > So at this point I am assuming that the Church is saying that
if one of=
> the commandments told you not to work on the Sabbath then it means
that fo=
> r all time everyone everywhere is obliged not to work on the
Sabbath.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Regarding the Lord?s Day paragraph 2175 says:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it
follows ch=
> ronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance
replaces=
> that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the
spiritual t=
> ruth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God.
For wor=
> ship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was
done th=
> ere prefigured some aspects of Christ"
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Now if this were to have been interpreted as Christians
(including the =
> Church) thinking that it was ok to replace "don't work on the
Sabbath" with=
> "don't work on the Lord's Day" then there would seem to me to be a
big pro=
> blem. Because to me it seems as though they must hold the heretical
belief =
> that paragraph 2072 was wrong. For with this as the interpretation
at some =
> point it wouldn't have been wrong to have worked on the Sabbath and
yet if =
> paragraph 2072 was correct the commandment says that it is
permanently wron=
> g to work on the Sabbath. Therefore to reasonably believe it is ok
to work =
> on the Sabbath would mean not believing in paragraph 2072 and that
disbelie=
> f would seem heretical. The alternative that they might both
(paragraphs 20=
> 72 and 2175) be right would seem to me to involve a contradiction
(with the=
> interpretation that it is ok to work on the Sabbath), and assuming
I'm rig=
> ht, it seems difficult to see how a reasonable person could be
expected to =
> believe it.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Maybe I am wrong on this, and if I am then hopefully someone
could expl=
> ain to me why.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > If I wasn't then there does seem to be an alternative to being
unreason=
> able or a heretic and that is to take the interpretation of 2175
that it me=
> ans that for Christians the Lord's Day replaces the Sabbath as the
most Hol=
> y day of the week. So that there are two holy days in the week.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The Catechism outlines the Sunday Obligations and they are
described as=
> being different from the Sabbath Obligations. Paragraph 2185 talks
about g=
> race and rest from work on Sundays.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are
to refr=
> ain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship
owed to God=
> , the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of
mercy, =
> and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body. Family needs or
important =
> social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of
Sunday rest. =
> the faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead
to habits=
> prejudicial to religion, family life, and health."
> >
> > >
> >
> > > and in paragraph 2187 it says:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > "Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort.
Every Chri=
> stian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would
hinder t=
> hem from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport,
restauran=
> ts, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require
some peo=
> ple to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set
aside su=
> fficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful
will se=
> e to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes
associated with=
> popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints,
public autho=
> rities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine
worship. =
> Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees."
> >
> > >
> >
> > > So it seems clear that the obligations of the Sabbath Day are
very diff=
> erent to the obligations of the Lord's Day when it comes to
refraining from=
> work.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > On the Sabbath Day we are told to rest and not to work, and in
paragrap=
> h 2072 we are told that the commandments;
> >
> > >
> >
> > > "...are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and
everywhere.=
> "
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Whereas on the Lord?s Day, we are told if you work in a
restaurant for =
> example then it?s ok to work on it.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Yet with this interpretation the suggestion that it would be ok
for a r=
> estaurant worker to work on the Sabbath would be heresy.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > So my problem is that it seems to me, as I have explained
above, that t=
> o say that it is all right for a restaurant worker to work on the
Sabbath w=
> ould seem to me to be either:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > A) What the Roman Catholic Church would call heresy. Given it
would see=
> m to involve a disbelief in at least one of the articles of faith
in the Ca=
> techism.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > or
> >
> > >
> >
> > > B) Seem to involve a contradiction which raises the question of
whether=
> a reasonable person could be expected to believe it.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Any help on this matter appreciated.
> >
> >
> >
> > All good and reasonable questions. Let me give you my take on it.
One of =
> the
> >
> > fundamental differences between Jewish and Christian
understanding of the
> >
> > Sabbath Commandment is that in the Christian tradition the
emphasis is on
> >
> > Christ's sacrifice as the atonement for all sin. All the Law,
seen throug=
> h
> >
> > this prism, anticipates this one great Justification.
> >
> >
> >

> Just as a side issue, when you say atonement for *all* sin does
that includ=
> e future sins (he paid the price from them by being sacrificed and
so they'=
> ll all be forgiven)?

Since God is outside time yes it means for future sins as well.

> > So the Sabbath is understood as prefiguring the final rest that
awaits th=
> e
> >
> > faithful in heaven. Any requirement for observing the Sabbath
has to be =
> one
> >
> > that takes Christ and his ministry of reconciling all to himself
into
> >
> > consideration, or it is a deficient understanding of what the
Sabbath rea=
> lly
> >
> > means.
> >

> In paragraph 2175 it says:

> "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it
follows chrono=
> logically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance
replaces tha=
> t of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the
spiritual truth=
> of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For
worship=
> under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was
done there =
> prefigured some aspects of Christ"

> and it expresses the commandment as:
> "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall
labor, and d=
> o all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your
God; in =
> it you shall not do any work."

> So it seems that the Church recognises which day is referred to,
and that y=
> ou should do no work on it.

> >
> >
> > The Church therefore has a higher calling than merely following
the lette=
> r
> >
> > of the law as it appears in the Torah. It has a divine obligation
to
> >
> > interpret the Law in the light of the final revelation of God's
plan for
> >
> > mankind, with Christ at it's center.
> >
> >
> >
> > Practically speaking, this means that the test for whether God is
honored=
> in
> >
> > the following of the Sabbath commandment is whether the Kingdom
of God is
> >
> > advanced on earth. The commandment is not to be a stumbling block
to
> >
> > holiness, since this is an inversion of what the Kingdom is all
about.
> >
> >

> Who was asked to evaluate whether it was worthwhile following the
commandme=
> nt not to work on the Sabbath?

> >
> > Thus, if it is a choice between working at a restaurant in order
to feed
> >
> > one's family, and falling into poverty, God wants us to be happy
and to h=
> ave
> >
> > occasion to thank Him for His blessings. HTH.
> >
> >

> You seem to be saying that God would want them to break the
commandment, so=
> they don't need to follow it. Whereas the Church in paragraph 2072
says:

> "Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and
towards his ne=
> ighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content,
grave obl=
> igations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always
and ever=
> ywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are
engraved by=
> God in the human heart."

> What you are saying seems quite different to the idea that not
working on t=
> he Sabbath is a grave obligation which is fundamentally immutable
and which=
> obliges always and everywhere, and that no one can dispense from
them.

I see what it is you are struggling with, and it is my sincere desire
that you come to a resolution sooner or later.

It is true that no one can change the requirements of the
commandment. No one except God of course. However if you believe that
Christ is the final revelation of the truth of God, and that his
church speaks for him, then you should have no problem reconciling
all difficulties.

The truth cannot disagree with itself, so if you believe Christ
speaks for the Father, and the Church speaks for Christ, then any
apparent discrepancy must lie with your understanding, not with the
church! :)

I suggest you reread those passages in the gospel which talk of the
Sabbath, and re read Hebrews, for Jewish law and Christian
interpretation of that law. And of course pray to the Holy Spirit for
wisdom because without prayer you can't do anything.

Come Holy Spirit fill the heartsof your faithful and enkindle in
them the fire of your love; send forth your spirit and there shall be
a new creation and you shall renew the face of the earth; let us
pray:

O God you have instructed the hearts of the faithful by the light of
the Holy Spirit. Grant that through the same Holy Spirit we may
always be truly wise and rejoice in his consolation. Amen.

--
Terry

Someone

2/5/2013 2:15:00 PM

On Tuesday, 5 February 2013 01:32:45 UTC, Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:08:37 -0800 (PST), Someone
>
> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, 4 February 2013 03:30:33 UTC, Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
>
> > > * It may have been the liquor talking, but
>
> > >
>
> > > Someone wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > I am having a difficulty understanding how a Catholic Priest
>
> could advi=
>
> > se someone that it is ok to work on the Sabbath.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > Hopefully I?ll be able to explain why.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > In Part 3, section 2, Chapter 1, article 3 of the Catechism as
>
> at the t=
>
> > ime of writing published on
>
> http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/...
>
> > M the Sabbath commandment is written as:
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall
>
> labor, an=
>
> > d do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord
>
> your God; =
>
> > in it you shall not do any work.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > It is suggested to be based on Exodus 20:8-10
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > 8 "Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.
>
> > >
>
> > > > 9 Six days you may labor and do all your work,
>
> > >
>
> > > > 10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No
>
> work ma=
>
> > y be done then either by you, or your son or daughter, or your male
>
> or fema=
>
> > le slave, or your beast, or by the alien who lives with you.
>
> > >
>
> > > > 11 In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea
>
> and all=
>
> > that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the
>
> LORD ha=
>
> > s blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > and Deut 5:12-15:
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > 12 'Take care to keep holy the sabbath day as the LORD, your
>
> God, comma=
>
> > nded you.
>
> > >
>
> > > > 13 Six days you may labor and do all your work;
>
> > >
>
> > > > 14 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No
>
> work ma=
>
> > y be done then, whether by you, or your son or daughter, or your
>
> male or fe=
>
> > male slave, or your ox or ass or any of your beasts, or the alien
>
> who lives=
>
> > with you. Your male and female slave should rest as you do.
>
> > >
>
> > > > 15 For remember that you too were once slaves in Egypt, and the
>
> LORD, y=
>
> > our God, brought you from there with his strong hand and
>
> outstretched arm. =
>
> > That is why the LORD, your God, has commanded you to observe the
>
> sabbath da=
>
> > y.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > A similar commandment is given in Exodus 34:21
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > 21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt
>
> rest: in=
>
> > earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > And in Exodus 35:2-3
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > 2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there
>
> shall be to=
>
> > you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth
>
> work there=
>
> > in shall be put to death.
>
> > >
>
> > > > 3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the
>
> sabbath =
>
> > day.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > The prevailing theme of not working on the Sabbath seems to me
>
> to be cl=
>
> > ear.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > Regarding the 10 commandments the Catechism in paragraph 2072
>
> states:
>
> > >
>
> > > > Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and
>
> towards his=
>
> > neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial
>
> content, grave =
>
> > obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige
>
> always and e=
>
> > verywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are
>
> engraved=
>
> > by God in the human heart.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > The piece that could my attention is the sentence:
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > "They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and
>
> everywher=
>
> > e."
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > In paragraph 2076 it states:
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > "By his life and by his preaching Jesus attested to the
>
> permanent valid=
>
> > ity of the Decalogue."
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > Which seems to me to indicate that according to the Catechism
>
> it is an =
>
> > article of faith that the commandments will be true forever.and
>
> everywhere.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > So at this point I am assuming that the Church is saying that
>
> if one of=
>
> > the commandments told you not to work on the Sabbath then it means
>
> that fo=
>
> > r all time everyone everywhere is obliged not to work on the
>
> Sabbath.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > Regarding the Lord?s Day paragraph 2175 says:
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it
>
> follows ch=
>
> > ronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance
>
> replaces=
>
> > that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the
>
> spiritual t=
>
> > ruth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God.
>
> For wor=
>
> > ship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was
>
> done th=
>
> > ere prefigured some aspects of Christ"
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > Now if this were to have been interpreted as Christians
>
> (including the =
>
> > Church) thinking that it was ok to replace "don't work on the
>
> Sabbath" with=
>
> > "don't work on the Lord's Day" then there would seem to me to be a
>
> big pro=
>
> > blem. Because to me it seems as though they must hold the heretical
>
> belief =
>
> > that paragraph 2072 was wrong. For with this as the interpretation
>
> at some =
>
> > point it wouldn't have been wrong to have worked on the Sabbath and
>
> yet if =
>
> > paragraph 2072 was correct the commandment says that it is
>
> permanently wron=
>
> > g to work on the Sabbath. Therefore to reasonably believe it is ok
>
> to work =
>
> > on the Sabbath would mean not believing in paragraph 2072 and that
>
> disbelie=
>
> > f would seem heretical. The alternative that they might both
>
> (paragraphs 20=
>
> > 72 and 2175) be right would seem to me to involve a contradiction
>
> (with the=
>
> > interpretation that it is ok to work on the Sabbath), and assuming
>
> I'm rig=
>
> > ht, it seems difficult to see how a reasonable person could be
>
> expected to =
>
> > believe it.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > Maybe I am wrong on this, and if I am then hopefully someone
>
> could expl=
>
> > ain to me why.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > If I wasn't then there does seem to be an alternative to being
>
> unreason=
>
> > able or a heretic and that is to take the interpretation of 2175
>
> that it me=
>
> > ans that for Christians the Lord's Day replaces the Sabbath as the
>
> most Hol=
>
> > y day of the week. So that there are two holy days in the week.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > The Catechism outlines the Sunday Obligations and they are
>
> described as=
>
> > being different from the Sabbath Obligations. Paragraph 2185 talks
>
> about g=
>
> > race and rest from work on Sundays.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are
>
> to refr=
>
> > ain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship
>
> owed to God=
>
> > , the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of
>
> mercy, =
>
> > and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body. Family needs or
>
> important =
>
> > social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of
>
> Sunday rest. =
>
> > the faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead
>
> to habits=
>
> > prejudicial to religion, family life, and health."
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > and in paragraph 2187 it says:
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > "Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort.
>
> Every Chri=
>
> > stian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would
>
> hinder t=
>
> > hem from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport,
>
> restauran=
>
> > ts, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require
>
> some peo=
>
> > ple to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set
>
> aside su=
>
> > fficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful
>
> will se=
>
> > e to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes
>
> associated with=
>
> > popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints,
>
> public autho=
>
> > rities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine
>
> worship. =
>
> > Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees."
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > So it seems clear that the obligations of the Sabbath Day are
>
> very diff=
>
> > erent to the obligations of the Lord's Day when it comes to
>
> refraining from=
>
> > work.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > On the Sabbath Day we are told to rest and not to work, and in
>
> paragrap=
>
> > h 2072 we are told that the commandments;
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > "...are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and
>
> everywhere.=
>
> > "
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > Whereas on the Lord?s Day, we are told if you work in a
>
> restaurant for =
>
> > example then it?s ok to work on it.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > Yet with this interpretation the suggestion that it would be ok
>
> for a r=
>
> > estaurant worker to work on the Sabbath would be heresy.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > So my problem is that it seems to me, as I have explained
>
> above, that t=
>
> > o say that it is all right for a restaurant worker to work on the
>
> Sabbath w=
>
> > ould seem to me to be either:
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > A) What the Roman Catholic Church would call heresy. Given it
>
> would see=
>
> > m to involve a disbelief in at least one of the articles of faith
>
> in the Ca=
>
> > techism.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > or
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > B) Seem to involve a contradiction which raises the question of
>
> whether=
>
> > a reasonable person could be expected to believe it.
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > > > Any help on this matter appreciated.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > All good and reasonable questions. Let me give you my take on it.
>
> One of =
>
> > the
>
> > >
>
> > > fundamental differences between Jewish and Christian
>
> understanding of the
>
> > >
>
> > > Sabbath Commandment is that in the Christian tradition the
>
> emphasis is on
>
> > >
>
> > > Christ's sacrifice as the atonement for all sin. All the Law,
>
> seen throug=
>
> > h
>
> > >
>
> > > this prism, anticipates this one great Justification.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> > Just as a side issue, when you say atonement for *all* sin does
>
> that includ=
>
> > e future sins (he paid the price from them by being sacrificed and
>
> so they'=
>
> > ll all be forgiven)?
>
>
>
> Since God is outside time yes it means for future sins as well.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > So the Sabbath is understood as prefiguring the final rest that
>
> awaits th=
>
> > e
>
> > >
>
> > > faithful in heaven. Any requirement for observing the Sabbath
>
> has to be =
>
> > one
>
> > >
>
> > > that takes Christ and his ministry of reconciling all to himself
>
> into
>
> > >
>
> > > consideration, or it is a deficient understanding of what the
>
> Sabbath rea=
>
> > lly
>
> > >
>
> > > means.
>
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> > In paragraph 2175 it says:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it
>
> follows chrono=
>
> > logically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance
>
> replaces tha=
>
> > t of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the
>
> spiritual truth=
>
> > of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For
>
> worship=
>
> > under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was
>
> done there =
>
> > prefigured some aspects of Christ"
>
>
>
>
>
> > and it expresses the commandment as:
>
> > "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall
>
> labor, and d=
>
> > o all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your
>
> God; in =
>
> > it you shall not do any work."
>
>
>
>
>
> > So it seems that the Church recognises which day is referred to,
>
> and that y=
>
> > ou should do no work on it.
>
>
>
>
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > The Church therefore has a higher calling than merely following
>
> the lette=
>
> > r
>
> > >
>
> > > of the law as it appears in the Torah. It has a divine obligation
>
> to
>
> > >
>
> > > interpret the Law in the light of the final revelation of God's
>
> plan for
>
> > >
>
> > > mankind, with Christ at it's center.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Practically speaking, this means that the test for whether God is
>
> honored=
>
> > in
>
> > >
>
> > > the following of the Sabbath commandment is whether the Kingdom
>
> of God is
>
> > >
>
> > > advanced on earth. The commandment is not to be a stumbling block
>
> to
>
> > >
>
> > > holiness, since this is an inversion of what the Kingdom is all
>
> about.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> > Who was asked to evaluate whether it was worthwhile following the
>
> commandme=
>
> > nt not to work on the Sabbath?
>
>
>
>
>
> > >
>
> > > Thus, if it is a choice between working at a restaurant in order
>
> to feed
>
> > >
>
> > > one's family, and falling into poverty, God wants us to be happy
>
> and to h=
>
> > ave
>
> > >
>
> > > occasion to thank Him for His blessings. HTH.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> > You seem to be saying that God would want them to break the
>
> commandment, so=
>
> > they don't need to follow it. Whereas the Church in paragraph 2072
>
> says:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and
>
> towards his ne=
>
> > ighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content,
>
> grave obl=
>
> > igations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always
>
> and ever=
>
> > ywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are
>
> engraved by=
>
> > God in the human heart."
>
>
>
>
>
> > What you are saying seems quite different to the idea that not
>
> working on t=
>
> > he Sabbath is a grave obligation which is fundamentally immutable
>
> and which=
>
> > obliges always and everywhere, and that no one can dispense from
>
> them.
>
>
>
> I see what it is you are struggling with, and it is my sincere desire
>
> that you come to a resolution sooner or later.
>
>
>
> It is true that no one can change the requirements of the
>
> commandment. No one except God of course. However if you believe that
>
> Christ is the final revelation of the truth of God, and that his
>
> church speaks for him, then you should have no problem reconciling
>
> all difficulties.
>
>
>
> The truth cannot disagree with itself, so if you believe Christ
>
> speaks for the Father, and the Church speaks for Christ, then any
>
> apparent discrepancy must lie with your understanding, not with the
>
> church! :)
>
>
>
> I suggest you reread those passages in the gospel which talk of the
>
> Sabbath, and re read Hebrews, for Jewish law and Christian
>
> interpretation of that law. And of course pray to the Holy Spirit for
>
> wisdom because without prayer you can't do anything.
>
>
>
> Come Holy Spirit fill the heartsof your faithful and enkindle in
>
> them the fire of your love; send forth your spirit and there shall be
>
> a new creation and you shall renew the face of the earth; let us
>
> pray:
>
>
>
> O God you have instructed the hearts of the faithful by the light of
>
> the Holy Spirit. Grant that through the same Holy Spirit we may
>
> always be truly wise and rejoice in his consolation. Amen.
>
>
>

With regards to the passages you mentioned, if you think there is anything relevant to this conversation in them, please, mention the relevant bits.

Now if I am understanding you correctly you seem to be saying that although in paragraph 2175 the Church recognises which day the Sabbath day is:

Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ

And although the commandment in their rendition is:

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.

They changed the day, because they thought that although it couldn't be changed, God could change it, and they thought that if Christ spoke for God, and that they spoke for Christ then it would be ok for them to change the commandment.

I got this impression where you wrote:
-----------------
It is true that no one can change the requirements of the

commandment. No one except God of course. However if you believe that

Christ is the final revelation of the truth of God, and that his

church speaks for him, then you should have no problem reconciling

all difficulties.
-----------------

I have two main problems with your suggestion.

The first is that it seems to be a contradiction to believe that the commandment cannot be changed and also believe that the Church changed it.

It isn't an issue of authority as you thought to think it might be, it is the issue of being expected to hold two contradictory beliefs.

You say:
-------------------
The truth cannot disagree with itself, so if you believe Christ

speaks for the Father, and the Church speaks for Christ, then any

apparent discrepancy must lie with your understanding, not with the

church! :)
--------------------

So if you believed that Christ speaks for the Father, and the Church speaks for Christ, and it lead to a contradictory conclusion, since the truth cannot disagree with itself, you'd have to assume your belief wasn't the truth..

The second point is that the Church does not seem to have done what you have suggested. Their view on the commandment seems quite clear:

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.

Notice there is no indication of any change to the no working on the Sabbath. Also as I have mentioned the Church says in paragraph 2072:

Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

It doesn't seem to me that the Church is claiming to have changed the commandment at all, they seem to view it as standing and referring to a day other than Sunday. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm assuming yours is a heretical view which includes a contradiction which seems to prevent any reasonable person from believing in it. Also I can find no indication of the viewpoint you put forward in the Catechism. Perhaps you could quote from the Catechism where it is believed that the commandment has been changed to no longer refer to the Sabbath? As I have said it seems to me that they are quite clear on the matter.

I heard on the news a while ago that the Vatican was thinking of having a web presence, do they have any representatives monitoring this channel? If so could you please clear this up for us and let us know the which position the Vatican takes? After all it does seem quite a basic issue, and it seems to me there might be some confusion about it.

If not then might I suggest it would be a good forum to use to make the Vatican's position clear as it caters for more in depth discussion than some other social sites.

Someone

2/11/2013 1:04:00 PM

On Tuesday, 5 February 2013 14:14:40 UTC, Someone wrote:
> On Tuesday, 5 February 2013 01:32:45 UTC, Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:08:37 -0800 (PST), Someone
>
> >
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Monday, 4 February 2013 03:30:33 UTC, Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > * It may have been the liquor talking, but
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Someone wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > I am having a difficulty understanding how a Catholic Priest
>
> >
>
> > could advi=
>
> >
>
> > > se someone that it is ok to work on the Sabbath.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Hopefully I?ll be able to explain why.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > In Part 3, section 2, Chapter 1, article 3 of the Catechism as
>
> >
>
> > at the t=
>
> >
>
> > > ime of writing published on
>
> >
>
> > http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/...
>
> >
>
> > > M the Sabbath commandment is written as:
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall
>
> >
>
> > labor, an=
>
> >
>
> > > d do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord
>
> >
>
> > your God; =
>
> >
>
> > > in it you shall not do any work.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > It is suggested to be based on Exodus 20:8-10
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 8 "Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 9 Six days you may labor and do all your work,
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No
>
> >
>
> > work ma=
>
> >
>
> > > y be done then either by you, or your son or daughter, or your male
>
> >
>
> > or fema=
>
> >
>
> > > le slave, or your beast, or by the alien who lives with you.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 11 In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea
>
> >
>
> > and all=
>
> >
>
> > > that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the
>
> >
>
> > LORD ha=
>
> >
>
> > > s blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > and Deut 5:12-15:
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 12 'Take care to keep holy the sabbath day as the LORD, your
>
> >
>
> > God, comma=
>
> >
>
> > > nded you.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 13 Six days you may labor and do all your work;
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 14 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No
>
> >
>
> > work ma=
>
> >
>
> > > y be done then, whether by you, or your son or daughter, or your
>
> >
>
> > male or fe=
>
> >
>
> > > male slave, or your ox or ass or any of your beasts, or the alien
>
> >
>
> > who lives=
>
> >
>
> > > with you. Your male and female slave should rest as you do.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 15 For remember that you too were once slaves in Egypt, and the
>
> >
>
> > LORD, y=
>
> >
>
> > > our God, brought you from there with his strong hand and
>
> >
>
> > outstretched arm. =
>
> >
>
> > > That is why the LORD, your God, has commanded you to observe the
>
> >
>
> > sabbath da=
>
> >
>
> > > y.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > A similar commandment is given in Exodus 34:21
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt
>
> >
>
> > rest: in=
>
> >
>
> > > earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > And in Exodus 35:2-3
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there
>
> >
>
> > shall be to=
>
> >
>
> > > you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth
>
> >
>
> > work there=
>
> >
>
> > > in shall be put to death.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the
>
> >
>
> > sabbath =
>
> >
>
> > > day.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > The prevailing theme of not working on the Sabbath seems to me
>
> >
>
> > to be cl=
>
> >
>
> > > ear.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Regarding the 10 commandments the Catechism in paragraph 2072
>
> >
>
> > states:
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and
>
> >
>
> > towards his=
>
> >
>
> > > neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial
>
> >
>
> > content, grave =
>
> >
>
> > > obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige
>
> >
>
> > always and e=
>
> >
>
> > > verywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are
>
> >
>
> > engraved=
>
> >
>
> > > by God in the human heart.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > The piece that could my attention is the sentence:
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > "They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and
>
> >
>
> > everywher=
>
> >
>
> > > e."
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > In paragraph 2076 it states:
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > "By his life and by his preaching Jesus attested to the
>
> >
>
> > permanent valid=
>
> >
>
> > > ity of the Decalogue."
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Which seems to me to indicate that according to the Catechism
>
> >
>
> > it is an =
>
> >
>
> > > article of faith that the commandments will be true forever.and
>
> >
>
> > everywhere.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > So at this point I am assuming that the Church is saying that
>
> >
>
> > if one of=
>
> >
>
> > > the commandments told you not to work on the Sabbath then it means
>
> >
>
> > that fo=
>
> >
>
> > > r all time everyone everywhere is obliged not to work on the
>
> >
>
> > Sabbath.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Regarding the Lord?s Day paragraph 2175 says:
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it
>
> >
>
> > follows ch=
>
> >
>
> > > ronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance
>
> >
>
> > replaces=
>
> >
>
> > > that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the
>
> >
>
> > spiritual t=
>
> >
>
> > > ruth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God.
>
> >
>
> > For wor=
>
> >
>
> > > ship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was
>
> >
>
> > done th=
>
> >
>
> > > ere prefigured some aspects of Christ"
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Now if this were to have been interpreted as Christians
>
> >
>
> > (including the =
>
> >
>
> > > Church) thinking that it was ok to replace "don't work on the
>
> >
>
> > Sabbath" with=
>
> >
>
> > > "don't work on the Lord's Day" then there would seem to me to be a
>
> >
>
> > big pro=
>
> >
>
> > > blem. Because to me it seems as though they must hold the heretical
>
> >
>
> > belief =
>
> >
>
> > > that paragraph 2072 was wrong. For with this as the interpretation
>
> >
>
> > at some =
>
> >
>
> > > point it wouldn't have been wrong to have worked on the Sabbath and
>
> >
>
> > yet if =
>
> >
>
> > > paragraph 2072 was correct the commandment says that it is
>
> >
>
> > permanently wron=
>
> >
>
> > > g to work on the Sabbath. Therefore to reasonably believe it is ok
>
> >
>
> > to work =
>
> >
>
> > > on the Sabbath would mean not believing in paragraph 2072 and that
>
> >
>
> > disbelie=
>
> >
>
> > > f would seem heretical. The alternative that they might both
>
> >
>
> > (paragraphs 20=
>
> >
>
> > > 72 and 2175) be right would seem to me to involve a contradiction
>
> >
>
> > (with the=
>
> >
>
> > > interpretation that it is ok to work on the Sabbath), and assuming
>
> >
>
> > I'm rig=
>
> >
>
> > > ht, it seems difficult to see how a reasonable person could be
>
> >
>
> > expected to =
>
> >
>
> > > believe it.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Maybe I am wrong on this, and if I am then hopefully someone
>
> >
>
> > could expl=
>
> >
>
> > > ain to me why.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > If I wasn't then there does seem to be an alternative to being
>
> >
>
> > unreason=
>
> >
>
> > > able or a heretic and that is to take the interpretation of 2175
>
> >
>
> > that it me=
>
> >
>
> > > ans that for Christians the Lord's Day replaces the Sabbath as the
>
> >
>
> > most Hol=
>
> >
>
> > > y day of the week. So that there are two holy days in the week.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > The Catechism outlines the Sunday Obligations and they are
>
> >
>
> > described as=
>
> >
>
> > > being different from the Sabbath Obligations. Paragraph 2185 talks
>
> >
>
> > about g=
>
> >
>
> > > race and rest from work on Sundays.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are
>
> >
>
> > to refr=
>
> >
>
> > > ain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship
>
> >
>
> > owed to God=
>
> >
>
> > > , the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of
>
> >
>
> > mercy, =
>
> >
>
> > > and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body. Family needs or
>
> >
>
> > important =
>
> >
>
> > > social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of
>
> >
>
> > Sunday rest. =
>
> >
>
> > > the faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead
>
> >
>
> > to habits=
>
> >
>
> > > prejudicial to religion, family life, and health."
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > and in paragraph 2187 it says:
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > "Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort.
>
> >
>
> > Every Chri=
>
> >
>
> > > stian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would
>
> >
>
> > hinder t=
>
> >
>
> > > hem from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport,
>
> >
>
> > restauran=
>
> >
>
> > > ts, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require
>
> >
>
> > some peo=
>
> >
>
> > > ple to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set
>
> >
>
> > aside su=
>
> >
>
> > > fficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful
>
> >
>
> > will se=
>
> >
>
> > > e to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes
>
> >
>
> > associated with=
>
> >
>
> > > popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints,
>
> >
>
> > public autho=
>
> >
>
> > > rities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine
>
> >
>
> > worship. =
>
> >
>
> > > Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees."
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > So it seems clear that the obligations of the Sabbath Day are
>
> >
>
> > very diff=
>
> >
>
> > > erent to the obligations of the Lord's Day when it comes to
>
> >
>
> > refraining from=
>
> >
>
> > > work.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > On the Sabbath Day we are told to rest and not to work, and in
>
> >
>
> > paragrap=
>
> >
>
> > > h 2072 we are told that the commandments;
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > "...are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and
>
> >
>
> > everywhere.=
>
> >
>
> > > "
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Whereas on the Lord?s Day, we are told if you work in a
>
> >
>
> > restaurant for =
>
> >
>
> > > example then it?s ok to work on it.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Yet with this interpretation the suggestion that it would be ok
>
> >
>
> > for a r=
>
> >
>
> > > estaurant worker to work on the Sabbath would be heresy.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > So my problem is that it seems to me, as I have explained
>
> >
>
> > above, that t=
>
> >
>
> > > o say that it is all right for a restaurant worker to work on the
>
> >
>
> > Sabbath w=
>
> >
>
> > > ould seem to me to be either:
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > A) What the Roman Catholic Church would call heresy. Given it
>
> >
>
> > would see=
>
> >
>
> > > m to involve a disbelief in at least one of the articles of faith
>
> >
>
> > in the Ca=
>
> >
>
> > > techism.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > or
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > B) Seem to involve a contradiction which raises the question of
>
> >
>
> > whether=
>
> >
>
> > > a reasonable person could be expected to believe it.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Any help on this matter appreciated.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > All good and reasonable questions. Let me give you my take on it.
>
> >
>
> > One of =
>
> >
>
> > > the
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > fundamental differences between Jewish and Christian
>
> >
>
> > understanding of the
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Sabbath Commandment is that in the Christian tradition the
>
> >
>
> > emphasis is on
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Christ's sacrifice as the atonement for all sin. All the Law,
>
> >
>
> > seen throug=
>
> >
>
> > > h
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > this prism, anticipates this one great Justification.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > Just as a side issue, when you say atonement for *all* sin does
>
> >
>
> > that includ=
>
> >
>
> > > e future sins (he paid the price from them by being sacrificed and
>
> >
>
> > so they'=
>
> >
>
> > > ll all be forgiven)?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Since God is outside time yes it means for future sins as well.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > > So the Sabbath is understood as prefiguring the final rest that
>
> >
>
> > awaits th=
>
> >
>
> > > e
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > faithful in heaven. Any requirement for observing the Sabbath
>
> >
>
> > has to be =
>
> >
>
> > > one
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > that takes Christ and his ministry of reconciling all to himself
>
> >
>
> > into
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > consideration, or it is a deficient understanding of what the
>
> >
>
> > Sabbath rea=
>
> >
>
> > > lly
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > means.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > In paragraph 2175 it says:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it
>
> >
>
> > follows chrono=
>
> >
>
> > > logically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance
>
> >
>
> > replaces tha=
>
> >
>
> > > t of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the
>
> >
>
> > spiritual truth=
>
> >
>
> > > of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For
>
> >
>
> > worship=
>
> >
>
> > > under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was
>
> >
>
> > done there =
>
> >
>
> > > prefigured some aspects of Christ"
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > and it expresses the commandment as:
>
> >
>
> > > "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall
>
> >
>
> > labor, and d=
>
> >
>
> > > o all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your
>
> >
>
> > God; in =
>
> >
>
> > > it you shall not do any work."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > So it seems that the Church recognises which day is referred to,
>
> >
>
> > and that y=
>
> >
>
> > > ou should do no work on it.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > The Church therefore has a higher calling than merely following
>
> >
>
> > the lette=
>
> >
>
> > > r
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > of the law as it appears in the Torah. It has a divine obligation
>
> >
>
> > to
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > interpret the Law in the light of the final revelation of God's
>
> >
>
> > plan for
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > mankind, with Christ at it's center.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Practically speaking, this means that the test for whether God is
>
> >
>
> > honored=
>
> >
>
> > > in
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > the following of the Sabbath commandment is whether the Kingdom
>
> >
>
> > of God is
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > advanced on earth. The commandment is not to be a stumbling block
>
> >
>
> > to
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > holiness, since this is an inversion of what the Kingdom is all
>
> >
>
> > about.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > Who was asked to evaluate whether it was worthwhile following the
>
> >
>
> > commandme=
>
> >
>
> > > nt not to work on the Sabbath?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Thus, if it is a choice between working at a restaurant in order
>
> >
>
> > to feed
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > one's family, and falling into poverty, God wants us to be happy
>
> >
>
> > and to h=
>
> >
>
> > > ave
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > occasion to thank Him for His blessings. HTH.
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > You seem to be saying that God would want them to break the
>
> >
>
> > commandment, so=
>
> >
>
> > > they don't need to follow it. Whereas the Church in paragraph 2072
>
> >
>
> > says:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > "Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and
>
> >
>
> > towards his ne=
>
> >
>
> > > ighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content,
>
> >
>
> > grave obl=
>
> >
>
> > > igations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always
>
> >
>
> > and ever=
>
> >
>
> > > ywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are
>
> >
>
> > engraved by=
>
> >
>
> > > God in the human heart."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > What you are saying seems quite different to the idea that not
>
> >
>
> > working on t=
>
> >
>
> > > he Sabbath is a grave obligation which is fundamentally immutable
>
> >
>
> > and which=
>
> >
>
> > > obliges always and everywhere, and that no one can dispense from
>
> >
>
> > them.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I see what it is you are struggling with, and it is my sincere desire
>
> >
>
> > that you come to a resolution sooner or later.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It is true that no one can change the requirements of the
>
> >
>
> > commandment. No one except God of course. However if you believe that
>
> >
>
> > Christ is the final revelation of the truth of God, and that his
>
> >
>
> > church speaks for him, then you should have no problem reconciling
>
> >
>
> > all difficulties.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
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> > The truth cannot disagree with itself, so if you believe Christ
>
> >
>
> > speaks for the Father, and the Church speaks for Christ, then any
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> >
>
> > apparent discrepancy must lie with your understanding, not with the
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> >
>
> > church! :)
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> >
>
> >
>
> >
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> > I suggest you reread those passages in the gospel which talk of the
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> >
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> > Sabbath, and re read Hebrews, for Jewish law and Christian
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> >
>
> > interpretation of that law. And of course pray to the Holy Spirit for
>
> >
>
> > wisdom because without prayer you can't do anything.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Come Holy Spirit fill the heartsof your faithful and enkindle in
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> >
>
> > them the fire of your love; send forth your spirit and there shall be
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> >
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> > a new creation and you shall renew the face of the earth; let us
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> >
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> > pray:
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> > O God you have instructed the hearts of the faithful by the light of
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> >
>
> > the Holy Spirit. Grant that through the same Holy Spirit we may
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> >
>
> > always be truly wise and rejoice in his consolation. Amen.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> With regards to the passages you mentioned, if you think there is anything relevant to this conversation in them, please, mention the relevant bits.
>
>
>
> Now if I am understanding you correctly you seem to be saying that although in paragraph 2175 the Church recognises which day the Sabbath day is:
>
>
>
> Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ
>
>
>
> And although the commandment in their rendition is:
>
>
>
> Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.
>
>
>
> They changed the day, because they thought that although it couldn't be changed, God could change it, and they thought that if Christ spoke for God, and that they spoke for Christ then it would be ok for them to change the commandment.
>
>
>
> I got this impression where you wrote:
>
> -----------------
>
> It is true that no one can change the requirements of the
>
>
>
> commandment. No one except God of course. However if you believe that
>
>
>
> Christ is the final revelation of the truth of God, and that his
>
>
>
> church speaks for him, then you should have no problem reconciling
>
>
>
> all difficulties.
>
> -----------------
>
>
>
> I have two main problems with your suggestion.
>
>
>
> The first is that it seems to be a contradiction to believe that the commandment cannot be changed and also believe that the Church changed it.
>
>
>
> It isn't an issue of authority as you thought to think it might be, it is the issue of being expected to hold two contradictory beliefs.
>
>
>
> You say:
>
> -------------------
>
> The truth cannot disagree with itself, so if you believe Christ
>
>
>
> speaks for the Father, and the Church speaks for Christ, then any
>
>
>
> apparent discrepancy must lie with your understanding, not with the
>
>
>
> church! :)
>
> --------------------
>
>
>
> So if you believed that Christ speaks for the Father, and the Church speaks for Christ, and it lead to a contradictory conclusion, since the truth cannot disagree with itself, you'd have to assume your belief wasn't the truth.
>
>
>
> The second point is that the Church does not seem to have done what you have suggested. Their view on the commandment seems quite clear:
>
>
>
> Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.
>
>
>
> Notice there is no indication of any change to the no working on the Sabbath. Also as I have mentioned the Church says in paragraph 2072:
>
>
>
> Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.
>
>
>
> It doesn't seem to me that the Church is claiming to have changed the commandment at all, they seem to view it as standing and referring to a day other than Sunday. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm assuming yours is a heretical view which includes a contradiction which seems to prevent any reasonable person from believing in it. Also I can find no indication of the viewpoint you put forward in the Catechism. Perhaps you could quote from the Catechism where it is believed that the commandment has been changed to no longer refer to the Sabbath? As I have said it seems to me that they are quite clear on the matter.
>
>
>
> I heard on the news a while ago that the Vatican was thinking of having a web presence, do they have any representatives monitoring this channel? If so could you please clear this up for us and let us know the which position the Vatican takes? After all it does seem quite a basic issue, and it seems to me there might be some confusion about it.
>
>
>
> If not then might I suggest it would be a good forum to use to make the Vatican's position clear as it caters for more in depth discussion than some other social sites.

Just reposting this in case someone reads the issues in the thread and has an explanation.

And as a side issue it seems to me that Twitter is a useful channel for the Pope to be heard, whereas a channel like this could be the type of media that could be used by the Church to add explanations of the Church's position to the post threads of their choice. This could totally delegated to officials of the Church other than the Pope.

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