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MI5 Persecution: Faxes Sent to Diplomatic/Legal (2306

MI5Victim

11/18/2007 1:22:00 PM


Faxes Sent to British Diplomatic/Legal logs

During the 1998-2000 period my records indicate that I sent at least 3,642 faxes to diplomatic and legal offices
located in the British isles, of which 3,345 went via TPC's email-to-fax service and 297 were sent via fax-modem
direct from my computer. The actual figure is somewhat higher since, for most of this period, whenever a recipient
asked to be deleted from my mailing list, I totally wiped all entries including that from the logfile.

In the records "Y" indicates successful transmission from fax-modem, "N" indicates failed transmission from fax-modem.
"E" indicates an error occurred while transmitting via fax-modem and a fax may have been only partly transmitted.
"y" and "n" indicate success or failure via TPC.

In April 2000 I changed the method of operation by recording "R" when a recipient requested removal, rather than
wiping their details from my mailing list and records; and keeping "B" records for when TPC actioned a ban on a
recipient's fax-number, but the recipient did not write to ask me to cease faxing. The purpose of these changes
was to keep more accurate and complete records, but the intention was thwarted by the police complaint.

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No faxes were sent after April 2000.

2306


--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<...
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
12 Answers

Nestor

3/25/2011 8:29:00 PM

0

gogu explained on 3/25/2011 :
> Î? "Nestor" <siros23@yahoo.com> έγραÏ?ε Ï?Ï?ο μήνÏ?μα
> news:imi2mg$66b$1@dont-email.me...
>> It happens that Kickboxer ®� formulated :
>> Yesterday I read in a leftist blog an article in the 25th of March,among
>> other things he calls the Patriarch hanged by the Turks-tragos.
>
>
> Well, I do not subscribe to such characterizations (this is where
> ADR/Roubini/the Pope excels....) but the truth is that he was the one
> to...excommunicate Ipsilantis!...
> Certainly this was not enough good to save his life later...
> Certainly the role of the majority of the high cleric during the Ottoman
> occupation was not the one should be, to put it mildly...

What most leftists fail to mention is how society was in Europe
between 1453-1821.The Pope in the west was fighting wars against the
Protestants,the Protestants killing Catholics, and the Russian church
was subvervient to the czars for centuries.The Ottoman empire until
1650 was the most feared country in Europe,and probably the most
powerfull.Nobody from the West could help the Estern Christians, I am
not suprrised at the conduct of the Orthodox High clergy,they are human
too,what choice they had,apergia,poria,katalipsi,or obey the
sultan.Where was the KKE,PASOK,SYRIZA and others to lead the people?


cnntp

3/25/2011 8:37:00 PM

0

Î? "Nestor" <siros23@yahoo.com> έγραÏ?ε Ï?Ï?ο μήνÏ?μα
news:imitte$mm3$1@dont-email.me...
> gogu explained on 3/25/2011 :
>> Î? "Nestor" <siros23@yahoo.com> έγραÏ?ε Ï?Ï?ο μήνÏ?μα
>> news:imi2mg$66b$1@dont-email.me...
>>> It happens that Kickboxer ®� formulated :
>>> Yesterday I read in a leftist blog an article in the 25th of March,among
>>> other things he calls the Patriarch hanged by the Turks-tragos.


>> Well, I do not subscribe to such characterizations (this is where
>> ADR/Roubini/the Pope excels....) but the truth is that he was the one
>> to...excommunicate Ipsilantis!...
>> Certainly this was not enough good to save his life later...
>> Certainly the role of the majority of the high cleric during the Ottoman
>> occupation was not the one should be, to put it mildly...


> What most leftists fail to mention is how society was in Europe between
> 1453-1821.The Pope in the west was fighting wars against the
> Protestants,the Protestants killing Catholics, and the Russian church
> was subvervient to the czars for centuries.The Ottoman empire until 1650
> was the most feared country in Europe,and probably the most
> powerfull.Nobody from the West could help the Estern Christians, I am not
> suprrised at the conduct of the Orthodox High clergy,they are human
> too,what choice they had,apergia,poria,katalipsi,or obey the sultan.Where
> was the KKE,PASOK,SYRIZA and others to lead the people?

LOL
But serioulsy, as for the choises...I don't know but since many other high
rank priests did the right think, I suppose those who didn't could do the
same if they wanted...
Anyway, xronia polla!

Nestor

3/25/2011 9:05:00 PM

0

gogu wrote on 3/25/2011 :
> Î? "Nestor" <siros23@yahoo.com> έγραÏ?ε Ï?Ï?ο μήνÏ?μα
> news:imitte$mm3$1@dont-email.me...
>> gogu explained on 3/25/2011 :
>>> Î? "Nestor" <siros23@yahoo.com> έγραÏ?ε Ï?Ï?ο μήνÏ?μα
>>> news:imi2mg$66b$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> It happens that Kickboxer ®� formulated :
>>>> Yesterday I read in a leftist blog an article in the 25th of March,among
>>>> other things he calls the Patriarch hanged by the Turks-tragos.
>
>
>>> Well, I do not subscribe to such characterizations (this is where
>>> ADR/Roubini/the Pope excels....) but the truth is that he was the one
>>> to...excommunicate Ipsilantis!...
>>> Certainly this was not enough good to save his life later...
>>> Certainly the role of the majority of the high cleric during the Ottoman
>>> occupation was not the one should be, to put it mildly...
>
>
>> What most leftists fail to mention is how society was in Europe between
>> 1453-1821.The Pope in the west was fighting wars against the
>> Protestants,the Protestants killing Catholics, and the Russian church
>> was subvervient to the czars for centuries.The Ottoman empire until 1650
>> was the most feared country in Europe,and probably the most
>> powerfull.Nobody from the West could help the Estern Christians, I am not
>> suprrised at the conduct of the Orthodox High clergy,they are human
>> too,what choice they had,apergia,poria,katalipsi,or obey the sultan.Where
>> was the KKE,PASOK,SYRIZA and others to lead the people?
>
> LOL
> But serioulsy, as for the choises...I don't know but since many other high
> rank priests did the right think, I suppose those who didn't could do the
> same if they wanted...
> Anyway, xronia polla!

I listened to these arguments about the clergy over thirty years ago.
The left uses these arguments to turn people against the
church,personally I am not religious, and I don't care what the clergy
did in the last 500 years,to tell you the truth the only reason there
were any christians left in the Ottoman Empire was to pay the "dekadia"
ten percent tax.Even bigger surprize is that the Turks left any Greeks
alive,or sell them to slavery to raise money for their wars.How did we
survive without IKA. I would love to turn the clock back,to 1700,and
watch as Ms Papariga,and Tsipras and the CC of KKE and PASOK tell the
sultan how to run his empire. lol lol lol


ADR

3/25/2011 11:18:00 PM

0

On Mar 25, 1:28 pm, Nestor <siro...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>   What most leftists fail to mention is how society was in Europe
> between 1453-1821.

Nestor, please, you do not know what any "Leftist" knows or does not.
In fact, what you state below betray extreme ignorance. Why choose to
advertise it in the context of a taking political potshots?

> The Pope in the west was fighting wars against the
> Protestants,the Protestants killing Catholics, and the Russian church
> was subvervient to the czars for centuries.

None of these statements are true per se, not to mention that the
Reformation and Counter-Reformation eras include a huge host of
personalities and actors, with the Pope being most of the times a
pawn, rather than a player.

As to the Russian Orthodox Church, you simply do not have a clue as to
what happened, do you? (Apparently not, on the basis of your
comments).

> The Ottoman empire until
> 1650 was the most feared country in Europe,and probably the most
> powerfull.

Again, a mistaken statement. Although the Ottoman Empire was hardly
powerless, it was very much in the process of decline from the early
17th century onwards. Its huge difficulty to subdue Crete and the
following humiliations in the hands of a weak player such as Venice
throughout this century clearly show a state in the process of steep
decline.

> Nobody from the West could help the Estern Christians, I am
> not suprrised at the conduct of the Orthodox High clergy

You simply do not get it, do you? The Orthodox Clergy id not want any
help from the West. In fact, it was very hostile (it is even today)
to the Catholic Church. In addition, the Orthodox clergy was, well
before 1453, well into Hesychasic mysticism (and it is still is,
partially) and as such, totally hostile to any ideas of humanism that
were percolating in the West. It was really no surprise that Mehmet
II selected Gennadios Scholarios as the Patriarch and the Leader of
the Rum milliet. He was a bitter opponent of Catholicism and an even
more bitter enemy of the last emperor, Constantine XI, accusing him of
"abandoning the faith". You should investigate these traitors
carefully (including Gennadios' influential friend, Mark of
Ephesus).

>,they are human
> too,what choice they had,apergia,poria,katalipsi,or obey the
> sultan.Where was the KKE,PASOK,SYRIZA and others to lead the people?

Well, there were the humanists and the aristocracy who had their own
followers. You should read about the career of Constantine XI
Dragatsis prior to his elevation to the office of emperor. You will
see how this warring aristocracy would have actually had quite a
chance in forcing an Ottoman retreat, if the Church was not bend into
undermining them at every turn. There is a strong reason that the
Ottomans extended every effort to kill every leading member of the
imperial aristocracy while elevated the Church prelates to high
office. Treason really pays off. These are indisputable facts and
there were the facts that led to the creation of the Church of Greece
(which the Patriarchate objected to).

ADR

3/25/2011 11:23:00 PM

0

On Mar 25, 2:04 pm, Nestor <siro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> gogu wrote on 3/25/2011 :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > ? "Nestor" <siro...@yahoo.com> ???a?e st? µ???µa
> >news:imitte$mm3$1@dont-email.me...
> >> gogu explained on 3/25/2011 :
> >>> ? "Nestor" <siro...@yahoo.com> ???a?e st? µ???µa
> >>>news:imi2mg$66b$1@dont-email.me...
> >>>> It happens that Kickboxer ®™ formulated :
> >>>> Yesterday I read in a leftist blog an article in the 25th of March,among
> >>>> other things he calls the Patriarch hanged by the Turks-tragos.
>
> >>> Well, I do not subscribe to such characterizations (this is where
> >>> ADR/Roubini/the Pope excels....) but the truth is that he was the one
> >>> to...excommunicate Ipsilantis!...
> >>> Certainly this was not enough good to save his life later...
> >>> Certainly the role of the majority of the high cleric during the Ottoman
> >>> occupation was not the one should be, to put it mildly...
>
> >>  What most leftists fail to mention is how society was in Europe between
> >> 1453-1821.The Pope in the west was fighting wars against the
> >> Protestants,the Protestants killing Catholics, and the Russian church
> >> was subvervient to the czars for centuries.The Ottoman empire until 1650
> >> was the most feared country in Europe,and probably the most
> >> powerfull.Nobody from the West could help the Estern Christians, I am not
> >> suprrised at the conduct of the Orthodox High clergy,they are human
> >> too,what choice they had,apergia,poria,katalipsi,or obey the sultan.Where
> >> was the KKE,PASOK,SYRIZA and others to lead the people?
>
> > LOL
> > But serioulsy, as for the choises...I don't know but since many other high
> > rank priests did the right think, I suppose those who didn't could do the
> > same if they wanted...
> > Anyway, xronia polla!
>
>   I listened to these arguments about the clergy over thirty years ago.
>   The left uses these arguments to turn people against the
> church,personally I am not religious, and I don't care what the clergy
> did in the last 500 years,to tell you the truth the only reason there
> were any christians left in the Ottoman Empire was to pay the "dekadia"
> ten percent tax.Even bigger surprize is that the Turks left any Greeks
> alive,or sell them to slavery to raise money for their wars.How did we
> survive without IKA. I would love to turn the clock back,to 1700,and
> watch as Ms Papariga,and Tsipras and the CC of KKE and PASOK tell the
> sultan how to run his empire. lol lol lol

Actually, Nestor, we did not survive very well without IKA. Infant
mortality was quite high and people were lucky to reach their 30's. A
man of about 40 years of age was really old and did not expect to live
much longer.

Why did the Turks live any Greeks alive? First and foremost, the
Greeks (or more appropriately, the Rhomaioi) did not fight against the
Ottomans. Mention any battle that you remember!! In fact, the
population as a whole, minus the aristocracy and the intellectuals,
was all for the Ottomans. Greeks served in the Ottoman armies and the
Ottoman administration. In the countryside, they provided the
workforce for the Turkish timariots, or they cultivated marginal land
in the mountainous areas or served as traders.

Do you believe that it was the right wing that actually advised the
Ottoman sultans? I would not doubt it!!! (LOL)

Nestor

3/25/2011 11:48:00 PM

0

ADR brought next idea :
> On Mar 25, 2:04 pm, Nestor <siro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> gogu wrote on 3/25/2011 :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Î? "Nestor" <siro...@yahoo.com> έγραÏ?ε Ï?Ï?ο μήνÏ?μα
>>> news:imitte$mm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> gogu explained on 3/25/2011 :
>>>>> Î? "Nestor" <siro...@yahoo.com> έγραÏ?ε Ï?Ï?ο μήνÏ?μα
>>>>> news:imi2mg$66b$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> It happens that Kickboxer ®� formulated :
>>>>>> Yesterday I read in a leftist blog an article in the 25th of March,among
>>>>>> other things he calls the Patriarch hanged by the Turks-tragos.
>>>>> Well, I do not subscribe to such characterizations (this is where
>>>>> ADR/Roubini/the Pope excels....) but the truth is that he was the one
>>>>> to...excommunicate Ipsilantis!...
>>>>> Certainly this was not enough good to save his life later...
>>>>> Certainly the role of the majority of the high cleric during the Ottoman
>>>>> occupation was not the one should be, to put it mildly...
>>>>  What most leftists fail to mention is how society was in Europe between
>>>> 1453-1821.The Pope in the west was fighting wars against the
>>>> Protestants,the Protestants killing Catholics, and the Russian church
>>>> was subvervient to the czars for centuries.The Ottoman empire until 1650
>>>> was the most feared country in Europe,and probably the most
>>>> powerfull.Nobody from the West could help the Estern Christians, I am not
>>>> suprrised at the conduct of the Orthodox High clergy,they are human
>>>> too,what choice they had,apergia,poria,katalipsi,or obey the sultan.Where
>>>> was the KKE,PASOK,SYRIZA and others to lead the people?
>>> LOL
>>> But serioulsy, as for the choises...I don't know but since many other high
>>> rank priests did the right think, I suppose those who didn't could do the
>>> same if they wanted...
>>> Anyway, xronia polla!
>>
>>   I listened to these arguments about the clergy over thirty years ago.
>>   The left uses these arguments to turn people against the
>> church,personally I am not religious, and I don't care what the clergy
>> did in the last 500 years,to tell you the truth the only reason there
>> were any christians left in the Ottoman Empire was to pay the "dekadia"
>> ten percent tax.Even bigger surprize is that the Turks left any Greeks
>> alive,or sell them to slavery to raise money for their wars.How did we
>> survive without IKA. I would love to turn the clock back,to 1700,and
>> watch as Ms Papariga,and Tsipras and the CC of KKE and PASOK tell the
>> sultan how to run his empire. lol lol lol
>
> Actually, Nestor, we did not survive very well without IKA. Infant
> mortality was quite high and people were lucky to reach their 30's. A
> man of about 40 years of age was really old and did not expect to live
> much longer.
>
> Why did the Turks live any Greeks alive? First and foremost, the
> Greeks (or more appropriately, the Rhomaioi) did not fight against the
> Ottomans. Mention any battle that you remember!! In fact, the

Battle of Lepanto 1571-they fought on both sides

population as a whole, minus the aristocracy and the intellectuals,
> was all for the Ottomans. Greeks served in the Ottoman armies and the
> Ottoman administration. In the countryside, they provided the
> workforce for the Turkish timariots, or they cultivated marginal land
> in the mountainous areas or served as traders.
>
> Do you believe that it was the right wing that actually advised the
> Ottoman sultans? I would not doubt it!!! (LOL)
Read the post about Mahi ths Nafpactou or Lepanto 1571-please read
the whole article.


ADR

3/26/2011 12:08:00 AM

0

On Mar 25, 4:48 pm, Nestor <siro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ADR brought next idea :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 25, 2:04 pm, Nestor <siro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> gogu wrote on 3/25/2011 :
>
> >>> ? "Nestor" <siro...@yahoo.com> ???a?e st? µ???µa
> >>>news:imitte$mm3$1@dont-email.me...
> >>>> gogu explained on 3/25/2011 :
> >>>>> ? "Nestor" <siro...@yahoo.com> ???a?e st? µ???µa
> >>>>>news:imi2mg$66b$1@dont-email.me...
> >>>>>> It happens that Kickboxer ®™ formulated :
> >>>>>> Yesterday I read in a leftist blog an article in the 25th of March,among
> >>>>>> other things he calls the Patriarch hanged by the Turks-tragos.
> >>>>> Well, I do not subscribe to such characterizations (this is where
> >>>>> ADR/Roubini/the Pope excels....) but the truth is that he was the one
> >>>>> to...excommunicate Ipsilantis!...
> >>>>> Certainly this was not enough good to save his life later...
> >>>>> Certainly the role of the majority of the high cleric during the Ottoman
> >>>>> occupation was not the one should be, to put it mildly...
> >>>>  What most leftists fail to mention is how society was in Europe between
> >>>> 1453-1821.The Pope in the west was fighting wars against the
> >>>> Protestants,the Protestants killing Catholics, and the Russian church
> >>>> was subvervient to the czars for centuries.The Ottoman empire until 1650
> >>>> was the most feared country in Europe,and probably the most
> >>>> powerfull.Nobody from the West could help the Estern Christians, I am not
> >>>> suprrised at the conduct of the Orthodox High clergy,they are human
> >>>> too,what choice they had,apergia,poria,katalipsi,or obey the sultan.Where
> >>>> was the KKE,PASOK,SYRIZA and others to lead the people?
> >>> LOL
> >>> But serioulsy, as for the choises...I don't know but since many other high
> >>> rank priests did the right think, I suppose those who didn't could do the
> >>> same if they wanted...
> >>> Anyway, xronia polla!
>
> >>   I listened to these arguments about the clergy over thirty years ago.
> >>   The left uses these arguments to turn people against the
> >> church,personally I am not religious, and I don't care what the clergy
> >> did in the last 500 years,to tell you the truth the only reason there
> >> were any christians left in the Ottoman Empire was to pay the "dekadia"
> >> ten percent tax.Even bigger surprize is that the Turks left any Greeks
> >> alive,or sell them to slavery to raise money for their wars.How did we
> >> survive without IKA. I would love to turn the clock back,to 1700,and
> >> watch as Ms Papariga,and Tsipras and the CC of KKE and PASOK tell the
> >> sultan how to run his empire. lol lol lol
>
> > Actually, Nestor, we did not survive very well without IKA.  Infant
> > mortality was quite high and people were lucky to reach their 30's.  A
> > man of about 40 years of age was really old and did not expect to live
> > much longer.
>
> > Why did the Turks live any Greeks alive?  First and foremost, the
> > Greeks (or more appropriately, the Rhomaioi) did not fight against the
> > Ottomans.  Mention any battle that you remember!!  In fact, the
>
> Battle of Lepanto 1571-they fought on both sides
>
> population as a whole, minus the aristocracy and the intellectuals,> was all for the Ottomans.  Greeks served in the Ottoman armies and the
> > Ottoman administration.   In the countryside, they provided the
> > workforce for the Turkish timariots, or they cultivated marginal land
> > in the mountainous areas or served as traders.
>
> > Do you believe that it was the right wing that actually advised the
> > Ottoman sultans?  I would not doubt it!!! (LOL)
>
>   Read the post about Mahi ths Nafpactou or Lepanto 1571-please read
> the whole article.- Hide quoted text -

No need to. I have read many and far more detailed accounts of the
battle of Lepando that would likely be contained in that article

john jones

3/26/2011 1:32:00 PM

0

ADR

Can you tell me a bit about the Humanists?
Also how they saw themselves? For example how they viewed the Hellenic
past and did they see themselves as Rhomaioi?

cnntp

3/26/2011 6:33:00 PM

0

Î? "Nestor" <siros23@yahoo.com> έγραÏ?ε Ï?Ï?ο μήνÏ?μα
news:imj01o$2ku$1@dont-email.me...
> gogu wrote on 3/25/2011 :
>> Î? "Nestor" <siros23@yahoo.com> έγραÏ?ε Ï?Ï?ο μήνÏ?μα
>> news:imitte$mm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>> gogu explained on 3/25/2011 :
>>>> Î? "Nestor" <siros23@yahoo.com> έγραÏ?ε Ï?Ï?ο μήνÏ?μα
>>>> news:imi2mg$66b$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> It happens that Kickboxer ®� formulated :
>>>>> Yesterday I read in a leftist blog an article in the 25th of
>>>>> March,among other things he calls the Patriarch hanged by the
>>>>> Turks-tragos.


>>>> Well, I do not subscribe to such characterizations (this is where
>>>> ADR/Roubini/the Pope excels....) but the truth is that he was the one
>>>> to...excommunicate Ipsilantis!...
>>>> Certainly this was not enough good to save his life later...
>>>> Certainly the role of the majority of the high cleric during the
>>>> Ottoman occupation was not the one should be, to put it mildly...


>>> What most leftists fail to mention is how society was in Europe between
>>> 1453-1821.The Pope in the west was fighting wars against the
>>> Protestants,the Protestants killing Catholics, and the Russian church
>>> was subvervient to the czars for centuries.The Ottoman empire until 1650
>>> was the most feared country in Europe,and probably the most
>>> powerfull.Nobody from the West could help the Estern Christians, I am
>>> not suprrised at the conduct of the Orthodox High clergy,they are human
>>> too,what choice they had,apergia,poria,katalipsi,or obey the
>>> sultan.Where was the KKE,PASOK,SYRIZA and others to lead the people?


>> LOL
>> But serioulsy, as for the choises...I don't know but since many other
>> high rank priests did the right think, I suppose those who didn't could
>> do the same if they wanted...
>> Anyway, xronia polla!


> I listened to these arguments about the clergy over thirty years ago.

These are not "arguments", this is the historical truth.
Actually there is unanimous consensus on this by virtually all historians...

> The left uses these arguments to turn people against the
> church,personally I am not religious,

Well, how the left is using the historical truth is their business, one
should fight them and their deceiving arguments and not the historical
truth.
I believe in G-d but I have little respect for the majority of the clergy,
sorry to say this...

ADR

3/26/2011 7:19:00 PM

0

On Mar 26, 6:32 am, john jones <mrjones...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ADR
>
> Can you tell me a bit about the Humanists?
> Also how they saw themselves? For example how they viewed the Hellenic
> past and did they see themselves as Rhomaioi?

This is rather complex because the humanist tradition is Byzantium
evolved slowly, from the 13th century onwards. Whatever I say here
would not be adequate but there is excellent information in some
recently (or not so recently) published books that I strongly
recommend that you read:

"Sailing from Byzantium: How a Lost Empire shaped the world" by Collin
Wells (the title of the book is a word play on Yeat's poem "Sailing to
Byzantium". This is excellent text on how medieval Rhomaioi
historians, artists and philosophers fleeing the Hesychastic mysticism
of the Orthodox Church, started the Renaissance.

Some more general texts offering information on the medieval Rhomaion
humanists are the following:

"Byzantine Civilization" by Steven Runciman
"The Last Byzantine Renaissance" by Steve Runciman
"The Lost Capital of Byzantium: The history of Mistras and the
Peloponnese" by Steve Runciman
"The Oxford History of Byzantium" by Cyril Mango (this book actually
covers the continuum to moder Greece in the final chapter)
"Byzantium: From Antiquity to Renaissance" by Thomas Mathews

A unique (but rather expensive book):
"Hellenism in Byzantium: The transformations of Greek Identity and the
Reception of the Classical Tradition" by Anthony Kaldelis
(this book deals partly with the struggle between Church and
Hellenism)

There are many others, of course. All the general histories of
Byzantium cover to some degree the cultural clash of the last two
centuries in Rhomania (we should not call the place Byzantium) but
there are few that really dwell well on the both the social, civil,
theological and cultural strife (which was intense), The Church
prevailed because it enlisted the causes of the masses against the
humanist and aristocrats. From the 1300's onwards, the Church assumed
that its preservation was probably antithetical to the preservation of
the Empire. So, it actively conspired with the Ottomans for the
overthrow of the state. The overthrow of the state assured the
victory of the Church. In fact, under the Ottomans, the Patriarchs
assumed powers that were unknown to them under the Empire and took
control of all the Orthodox Churches under the sway of the Ottoman
Empire. For the Church, this was a tremendous victory.

For many of the Church leaders of that time like Mark of Ephesus and
Gennadius Scholarius (and others), humanists like Gemistos Plython and
Bessarion were the devil incarnate. The last members of the
Palaeologan dynasty "had abandoned the faith" and were thus
"enemies" Thus, Constantine XI defended Constantinople that included
a population that wanted his death and the Ottomans within the city.
These are the truths. They are uncomfortable ones, but truths
nevertheless.

Now, were these humanists "Rhomaioi" or were they "Hellenes". There
is little doubt that Bessarion and Gemisto Plethon were "Hellenes".
The latter even abandoned Christianity and re-introduced the ancient
Greek religion. Bessarion remained a Christian and almost became
Pope. The earlier ones were ambivalent but you have to understand
that the designation "Rhomaios" meant a composite identity and was not
similar to "Rhomianos" (a Roman). A Rhomaios saw himself as equally
descended from Miltiades and Augustus in the civic sense and embracing
mostly "antique hellenic culture".